quick oil question
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Originally Posted by slipstream444,Apr 30 2009, 07:01 PM
What do you mean by evidence? Do you mean I'm going to buy a car, tear it apart and then compare it to a European variant? No, I'm not.
Here's what I'm going to do for you though - I have an engineering background and can tell you there's a hell of a lot that goes into designing something like a car - and of course the engine in the car. Modern cars are built to exacting tolerances - and as such, I can absolutely assure you that when a manufacturer specifies an engine oil, there is a lot of engineering that went into that decision.
Oil viscosity is not an afterthought, it's an integral design element that takes into consideration a multitude of design criteria to include what market the car is designed to operate in - environmental considerations from regulations to the actual environment it has to exist in (dusty, hot and dry - humid and cold... etc.), the components specific to that model that would be effected by the use of the oil or will affect the oil in some way, specific component performance - such as bearings, oil pump, oil transportation system - passage size, things such as oil sprayers (as used in the S2000), and the multitude of things from metallurgy to oil pressure... too many things to enumerate.
As you can see, there is a lot that goes into it. The bottom line is to use what the manufacturer recommends.
Go outside of that recommendation at your own risk - and if you do and things go south, don't try to soak the manufacturer (and the rest of us) because of YOUR bad decision - just suck it up and take responsibility for your actions. The rest of us are sick of bailing out idiots - thank you very much.
Here's what I'm going to do for you though - I have an engineering background and can tell you there's a hell of a lot that goes into designing something like a car - and of course the engine in the car. Modern cars are built to exacting tolerances - and as such, I can absolutely assure you that when a manufacturer specifies an engine oil, there is a lot of engineering that went into that decision.
Oil viscosity is not an afterthought, it's an integral design element that takes into consideration a multitude of design criteria to include what market the car is designed to operate in - environmental considerations from regulations to the actual environment it has to exist in (dusty, hot and dry - humid and cold... etc.), the components specific to that model that would be effected by the use of the oil or will affect the oil in some way, specific component performance - such as bearings, oil pump, oil transportation system - passage size, things such as oil sprayers (as used in the S2000), and the multitude of things from metallurgy to oil pressure... too many things to enumerate.
As you can see, there is a lot that goes into it. The bottom line is to use what the manufacturer recommends.
Go outside of that recommendation at your own risk - and if you do and things go south, don't try to soak the manufacturer (and the rest of us) because of YOUR bad decision - just suck it up and take responsibility for your actions. The rest of us are sick of bailing out idiots - thank you very much.
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From: Pensacola
Originally Posted by skeithr,May 1 2009, 12:10 AM
DAMN, thats all i got to say about that. thanks again for the tip slip, for my s2000 it gets nothing but amsoil, but my girls focus, i will change it back to recommended the next oil change. keith
Your car will be fine, and Amsoil does make a quality 0W20 that will work well in your Focus.
Cheers.
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From: 17 ft below sea level.
Just for fun: 
Compare this:
slipstream444 Posted: Apr 28 2009, 06:14 PM
With this:
slipstream444 Posted on Apr 30 2009, 05:32 PM
Anyway.. there are engines designed to use low friction oils, and those oils are usually have the ACEA A1/B1 and A5/B5 spec.
Both oils with low HTHS numbers and those "low friction oils" have a warning not to use them in engines that weren't designed to use those oils.
Btw.. low friction is not the same as low viscosity.
A low friction oil can be a 30 weight.
Furthermore, I don't think Ford, Honda, Toyota or any car manufacturer for that matter, have designed an engine yet that has to run on a 20 weight.
Car markets are more global than ever, engines on several platforms are used worldwide and you don't really believe they have a specific tolerance specifications for different countries.. do you?
I mean, for example engine type 4A-GE (Toyota) has less tolerance on its bearings when its going to be used in NA just because it has 5W-20 oil in its owners manual?
C'mon.....
What they do do, is test if those engines run well on a 20 weight for some markets, and they know very well those 20 weights are better and better.
They also know the 20 weights aren't available in Europe.
To come back at Ford, they have a whole bunch of VCT engines for sale in Europe and they all have to live on 30 or 40 weights.
Same for Toyota, the latest Toyota sold overhere will never see a 20 weight.
That doesn't mean it can't.
This whole discussion is about 1 grade up.
It really is a:
And the answer is:
IT DOESN'T MATTER!
(I rest my case)
Compare this:
slipstream444 Posted: Apr 28 2009, 06:14 PM
Running a 10W30 in a car designed to run a 5W20 is not unlike running a 15W50 in our car - it's not designed to run an oil of that viscosity and will lead to marginal lubrication at higher RPMs and lower gas mileage. The oil pump has to work harder to pump a higher viscosity oil, higher viscosity oil creates higher windage drag, and oil passages designed for a 5W20 will restrict the flow of a higher viscosity oil - all are not good.
slipstream444 Posted on Apr 30 2009, 05:32 PM
A 0W/5W20 oil is specified for a number of Ford, Honda, Toyota (and a few other manufacturers) cars - that are designed to run THAT viscosity oil. Could you run a 10W30 in all those cars without damage etc.? I'm sure you could - but the question that should be asked is "should you?"... and the answer is arguably NO.
Anyway.. there are engines designed to use low friction oils, and those oils are usually have the ACEA A1/B1 and A5/B5 spec.
Both oils with low HTHS numbers and those "low friction oils" have a warning not to use them in engines that weren't designed to use those oils.
Btw.. low friction is not the same as low viscosity.
A low friction oil can be a 30 weight.
Furthermore, I don't think Ford, Honda, Toyota or any car manufacturer for that matter, have designed an engine yet that has to run on a 20 weight.
Car markets are more global than ever, engines on several platforms are used worldwide and you don't really believe they have a specific tolerance specifications for different countries.. do you?
I mean, for example engine type 4A-GE (Toyota) has less tolerance on its bearings when its going to be used in NA just because it has 5W-20 oil in its owners manual?
C'mon.....
What they do do, is test if those engines run well on a 20 weight for some markets, and they know very well those 20 weights are better and better.
They also know the 20 weights aren't available in Europe.
To come back at Ford, they have a whole bunch of VCT engines for sale in Europe and they all have to live on 30 or 40 weights.
Same for Toyota, the latest Toyota sold overhere will never see a 20 weight.
That doesn't mean it can't.
This whole discussion is about 1 grade up.
It really is a:
And the answer is:
IT DOESN'T MATTER!
(I rest my case)
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,491
Likes: 11
From: Pensacola
Read into it what you want - they are two separate angles on the subject and don't represent a "U" turn, especially with the second parsed segment specifically amplifying/answering information from one of your posts Spitfire.
I can parse your statements and take them out of context as well, but there's nothing constructive that comes from it.
That kind of political spin is not what I would expect from the famous Spitfire.
ACEA A1/B1 and A5/B5 specs are not directly related to "low friction" characteristics per se, they are related to an oil's "energy saving" qualities which takes into consideration several characteristics in the oil, including max and min viscosity. There are several XXW30 weight oils that carry this spec, including the Amsoil 10W30 the OP likely used in his Focus. However, the U.S. Ford Focus specifies a 5W20 for a 'normal' temperature range.
To emphasize an earlier point, the Euro Focus has no less than 5 petrol engine options (1.4L to 2.5L) , and 3 diesel engines (with sub-variations of some of those engines) - all specified to run 5W30 - and all come with the warning NOT to use a 10W40 (your no brainer one viscosity higher argument debunked) in temps that approach 0C (32F) due to the fact the engine can suffer from inadequate lubrication - and that's from the Ford Euro manual.
Considering there were/are only two engine variations available in the U.S. Focus (both 2.0L, with the second version being the lower California emission version of the other engine), I'll again emphasize they're NOT the same car - and hence the different oil requirements.
Feel free to argue the ancillaries - my stance is (as it always is) to use the recommended weight oil. Furthermore, don't recommend anything unless you're willing to contribute to the repair costs associated with a bad recommendation caused failure. The point will soon be irrelevant as the OP will be switching back to the appropriate weight.
I can parse your statements and take them out of context as well, but there's nothing constructive that comes from it.
That kind of political spin is not what I would expect from the famous Spitfire.
ACEA A1/B1 and A5/B5 specs are not directly related to "low friction" characteristics per se, they are related to an oil's "energy saving" qualities which takes into consideration several characteristics in the oil, including max and min viscosity. There are several XXW30 weight oils that carry this spec, including the Amsoil 10W30 the OP likely used in his Focus. However, the U.S. Ford Focus specifies a 5W20 for a 'normal' temperature range.
To emphasize an earlier point, the Euro Focus has no less than 5 petrol engine options (1.4L to 2.5L) , and 3 diesel engines (with sub-variations of some of those engines) - all specified to run 5W30 - and all come with the warning NOT to use a 10W40 (your no brainer one viscosity higher argument debunked) in temps that approach 0C (32F) due to the fact the engine can suffer from inadequate lubrication - and that's from the Ford Euro manual.
Considering there were/are only two engine variations available in the U.S. Focus (both 2.0L, with the second version being the lower California emission version of the other engine), I'll again emphasize they're NOT the same car - and hence the different oil requirements.
Feel free to argue the ancillaries - my stance is (as it always is) to use the recommended weight oil. Furthermore, don't recommend anything unless you're willing to contribute to the repair costs associated with a bad recommendation caused failure. The point will soon be irrelevant as the OP will be switching back to the appropriate weight.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 308
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What I mean by evidence is papers written by the manufacture or maybe interviews with the designers. I am not asking you to tear apart anything. I fully understanding engineering and also understand bean counters. It does not take much to test engines designed with a xw-30 oil in mind with a xw-20 oil. Nothing has to be changed. The xw-20 oils could provide sufficient protection and acceptable engine life and therefore be recommended. I am just asking for facts not conjecture.
I fully respect your stance on using recommended oil weights, but by that same token why do you insist on using Amsoil?
From the 2002 owners manual
Recommended Oil
Oil is major contributor to your engine
I fully respect your stance on using recommended oil weights, but by that same token why do you insist on using Amsoil?
From the 2002 owners manual
Recommended Oil
Oil is major contributor to your engine
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,491
Likes: 11
From: Pensacola
[QUOTE=IcebergS2000,May 1 2009, 10:07 PM] What I mean by evidence is papers written by the manufacture or maybe interviews with the designers. I am not asking you to tear apart anything. I fully understanding engineering and also understand bean counters. It does not take much to test engines designed with a xw-30 oil in mind with a xw-20 oil. Nothing has to be changed. The xw-20 oils could provide sufficient protection and acceptable engine life and therefore be recommended. I am just asking for facts not conjecture.
I fully respect your stance on using recommended oil weights, but by that same token why do you insist on using Amsoil?
From the 2002 owners manual
Recommended Oil
Oil is major contributor to your engine
I fully respect your stance on using recommended oil weights, but by that same token why do you insist on using Amsoil?
From the 2002 owners manual
Recommended Oil
Oil is major contributor to your engine
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 308
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by slipstream444,May 1 2009, 11:29 PM
Obviously you don't understand "engineering" if you asked the question in the first place... and then in the next breath you state manufacturers casually switch from one viscosity to another without any thought to it. There's a difference between a fact and an assumption, and you went with the latter there.
Here's a fact (from an automotive engineers mouth, to my ears... and then to your computer screen): they don't make the decision casually - there's a lot of engineering, chemistry, and math that goes into the decision.
Here's a fact (from an automotive engineers mouth, to my ears... and then to your computer screen): they don't make the decision casually - there's a lot of engineering, chemistry, and math that goes into the decision.
Also, why are you asking me to do the research for your "facts." If you present something as fact, and I question it, you should be able to provide evidence to the claim.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,491
Likes: 11
From: Pensacola
[QUOTE=IcebergS2000,May 2 2009, 01:11 PM] I never stated that they "casually" change oil specs. I simply stated that it would be easy enough to test a previously designed engine with a different viscosity grade oil. You can still do the "engineering, chemistry, and math" and come to the conclusion that the same engine can run on a different grade oil, then do testing with that grade and find out that it is acceptable.