Random misfires CEL codes?
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Originally Posted by Wisconsin S2k,Apr 24 2006, 05:19 PM
that's all fine and dandy, except for the fact that he has a crankshaft TDC CEL code. that has nothing to do with the fuel system you were trying to point him towards. 
and as will stated, this would cause the random misfires.
we are not paid to do this, and FYI the information we provide is the same we would do if we ourselves had the issue, in which case we ARE paying for time and/or parts.
if you get a random misfire code P0300/P1399 and misfires in ALL FOUR CYLINDERS, P0301-P0304 (key word here, ALL FOUR) then you could have a fuel system issue. however, you CAN get a random misfire CEL, but then also have it coded to only 1, 2, or 3 cylinders, in which case the fuel system is NOT where you want to start. I don't care whether you think it's cost effective or not, we're going to start with the simplest and easiest to pinpoint solutions first.
Let's see what the helm says, mkay?
If you have a P0300 and any number of P0301-P0304, they want you to determine when/how it's misfiring. Without a way to capture data freezes, you have to guess that it's fuel pressure (note, NOT injectors), low compression, bad fuel, VTEC malfunction, or valve clearances.
Then, the next step is to check ignition coils, then spark plugs, then swap injectors, then ignition coil voltages, then ecu, etc, etc. Well look at that, the helm indicates to start with spark plug and ignition coils. Generally because they are the most common.
However, the Key DTC here is the one for the crankshaft sensor, which the helm indicates misfire with CKP DTC to follow a different set of procedures, which are NOT related to fuel system or injectors.
and unless you have a tool to freeze data, you can't determine this, hence the reason we follow the troubleshooting in the helm's manual, which states to start with coil packs and spark plugs.
your own personal experience has nothing to do with how common a problem is or isn't. xviper can tell you all about measureable scientific numbers in this regard.
you're right, but it happens. luck of the draw.
out of the 50,000-60,000 S2k's in existence? 1% of them would be around 600 cars. Can you even find 600 threads in the history of s2ki of people with CEL's that weren't something like them crossing vacuum lines when they installed their intake, or other user error type CELs? So in answer to your statement "look how many S2k's are throwing CELs", the answer is not very many at all.
So suddenly now this makes you right and us wrong? And we shouldn't be giving advice? Look how many people DO have this kind of problem and it IS the coil packs/spark plugs/valves/compression/etc. Probably about 90% of them. As for you paying for it, if you're doing it yourself, you're paying nothing. If the dealership is doing the figuring out, then you don't need our help, and a non-crooked dealership isn't going to make you pay for things and troubleshooting that don't solve the problem. So either way, we are correct in our troubleshooting steps.
Also, if myself, xviper, slows2k or billman had been giving you advice, and you'd tried all the above and none of it worked, we would have pointed out injectors or ecu as your problem. also fuel pressure. point me to the thread and lets see for ourselves shall we?
of which 90% are solved by thing unrelated to injectors/fuel system.
now you're just plain making inaccurate statements.
nope, because of the fact that there are MANY things that can cause the CEL. we take CELs on a case by case basis because of this.
so now you want to tell us how to run our forum?
congrats, you bias the search to find threads with CELs and injectors. want a cookie?
the difinitive thread? so just because you find someone with a thread where he had a fuel system problem, we should suddenly change the order of the helm's manual and disregard the most common solutions to these problems?
We welcome people who want to offer advice, but you're just plain incorrect and your logic is severely flawed. I was trying to be nice to you, but now you're just being annoying. If you want to tell everyone here how wrong people like xviper and slows2k are, good luck convincing them you know better. I suggest you rethink your position here, becuase quite simply, you're wrong. You posted information about him trying to solve his problem that has as much bearing on his problem as me wearing a blue shirt to work today. Fuel system problems won't cause a crankshaft TDC sensor CEL. If you are going to give advice, then give correct advice.
and as will stated, this would cause the random misfires. we are not paid to do this, and FYI the information we provide is the same we would do if we ourselves had the issue, in which case we ARE paying for time and/or parts.
if you get a random misfire code P0300/P1399 and misfires in ALL FOUR CYLINDERS, P0301-P0304 (key word here, ALL FOUR) then you could have a fuel system issue. however, you CAN get a random misfire CEL, but then also have it coded to only 1, 2, or 3 cylinders, in which case the fuel system is NOT where you want to start. I don't care whether you think it's cost effective or not, we're going to start with the simplest and easiest to pinpoint solutions first.
Let's see what the helm says, mkay?
If you have a P0300 and any number of P0301-P0304, they want you to determine when/how it's misfiring. Without a way to capture data freezes, you have to guess that it's fuel pressure (note, NOT injectors), low compression, bad fuel, VTEC malfunction, or valve clearances.
Then, the next step is to check ignition coils, then spark plugs, then swap injectors, then ignition coil voltages, then ecu, etc, etc. Well look at that, the helm indicates to start with spark plug and ignition coils. Generally because they are the most common.
However, the Key DTC here is the one for the crankshaft sensor, which the helm indicates misfire with CKP DTC to follow a different set of procedures, which are NOT related to fuel system or injectors.
and unless you have a tool to freeze data, you can't determine this, hence the reason we follow the troubleshooting in the helm's manual, which states to start with coil packs and spark plugs.
your own personal experience has nothing to do with how common a problem is or isn't. xviper can tell you all about measureable scientific numbers in this regard.
you're right, but it happens. luck of the draw.
out of the 50,000-60,000 S2k's in existence? 1% of them would be around 600 cars. Can you even find 600 threads in the history of s2ki of people with CEL's that weren't something like them crossing vacuum lines when they installed their intake, or other user error type CELs? So in answer to your statement "look how many S2k's are throwing CELs", the answer is not very many at all.
So suddenly now this makes you right and us wrong? And we shouldn't be giving advice? Look how many people DO have this kind of problem and it IS the coil packs/spark plugs/valves/compression/etc. Probably about 90% of them. As for you paying for it, if you're doing it yourself, you're paying nothing. If the dealership is doing the figuring out, then you don't need our help, and a non-crooked dealership isn't going to make you pay for things and troubleshooting that don't solve the problem. So either way, we are correct in our troubleshooting steps.
Also, if myself, xviper, slows2k or billman had been giving you advice, and you'd tried all the above and none of it worked, we would have pointed out injectors or ecu as your problem. also fuel pressure. point me to the thread and lets see for ourselves shall we?
of which 90% are solved by thing unrelated to injectors/fuel system.
now you're just plain making inaccurate statements.
nope, because of the fact that there are MANY things that can cause the CEL. we take CELs on a case by case basis because of this.
so now you want to tell us how to run our forum?
congrats, you bias the search to find threads with CELs and injectors. want a cookie?
the difinitive thread? so just because you find someone with a thread where he had a fuel system problem, we should suddenly change the order of the helm's manual and disregard the most common solutions to these problems?
We welcome people who want to offer advice, but you're just plain incorrect and your logic is severely flawed. I was trying to be nice to you, but now you're just being annoying. If you want to tell everyone here how wrong people like xviper and slows2k are, good luck convincing them you know better. I suggest you rethink your position here, becuase quite simply, you're wrong. You posted information about him trying to solve his problem that has as much bearing on his problem as me wearing a blue shirt to work today. Fuel system problems won't cause a crankshaft TDC sensor CEL. If you are going to give advice, then give correct advice.
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From: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted by Slows2k,Apr 24 2006, 05:37 PM
Cleaning the injectors only fixes the cars with clogged/dirty injectors. It won't fix a injector with shorted windings. (which has also happend)
There is no blanket statement repair that fixes misfire DTC's. They have many causes which need to be eliminated one at time. Typical troubleshooting start with the easiest things to check 1st, such as spark plugs and moving coil packs and fuel injectors.Then moving on to more time consuming checks such as fuel pressure, valve clearance, and cylinder leakage.
Another issue is the PCM's misfire monitor is not always accurate. The PCM is watching fluctuations in CKP signal to deterimine what cylinder is misfiring. On a high RPM misfire, the PCM maynot be able to isolate what cylinder and stores multiple misfire DTC's.
There is no blanket statement repair that fixes misfire DTC's. They have many causes which need to be eliminated one at time. Typical troubleshooting start with the easiest things to check 1st, such as spark plugs and moving coil packs and fuel injectors.Then moving on to more time consuming checks such as fuel pressure, valve clearance, and cylinder leakage.
Another issue is the PCM's misfire monitor is not always accurate. The PCM is watching fluctuations in CKP signal to deterimine what cylinder is misfiring. On a high RPM misfire, the PCM maynot be able to isolate what cylinder and stores multiple misfire DTC's.
I am not convinced injector problems seen by S2000 owners are the root cause, they might be a symptom of something else, whether it be electrical (inside the injector or outside), or fuel pressure related.
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Well, PERSONALLY, I would:
Stop resetting the ECU. Leave the codes there. Because with those codes, comes FREEZE DATA.
A good tech will be able to read the freeze data, particually the STFT and LTFT.
Then, a dertermination can be made if the conditon was caused by a lean (lack of fuel, or too much air) or rich (secondary ignition stuff like plugs and coil packs).
It takes all of one minute to read the freeze data, to put you on track.
Or 10 seconds with Chris's Teradyne
Stop resetting the ECU. Leave the codes there. Because with those codes, comes FREEZE DATA.
A good tech will be able to read the freeze data, particually the STFT and LTFT.
Then, a dertermination can be made if the conditon was caused by a lean (lack of fuel, or too much air) or rich (secondary ignition stuff like plugs and coil packs).
It takes all of one minute to read the freeze data, to put you on track.
Or 10 seconds with Chris's Teradyne
that's my bitch 
Thread Starter
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From: London
Hey guys.. sorry I didn't check this thread for updates 
I've put in some injector cleaner and I've done about a 1/2 tank. My car is a weekend only car and does a few short trips in London where you can't really open it up due to traffic.
I'm tending to think that they could be a bit gummed up.
The car was with Honda about 6 months (2k ago) and they did the recall work on the spark plugs. Also the bottom end recall work. Oil jets I think!? So I doubt it's the plugs. I'll pull them out and take a look though.
However after this work was done it threw a CEL. I took it back to the dealer and the technician said it was 'low fuel'
I didn't ask for the specific code and just dismissed it as a glitch. I would imagine this would lend itself toward the fueling problem.
I should also add that the penultimate (before last) time it threw a CEL was when the car was cold. I was getting in and kicked the gas pedal. The revs rose quick but it didn't hit any limiters. Also it threw a code when I detailed the engine bay and washed the grime off. SOrry I know thats probably not a good thing to do
That could be the cause of the CPS code which could be a red herring.
I'm going to run another tank of injector cleaner through and will see how that works. I'll keep this thread updated if anything else happens.
I've put in some injector cleaner and I've done about a 1/2 tank. My car is a weekend only car and does a few short trips in London where you can't really open it up due to traffic.
I'm tending to think that they could be a bit gummed up.The car was with Honda about 6 months (2k ago) and they did the recall work on the spark plugs. Also the bottom end recall work. Oil jets I think!? So I doubt it's the plugs. I'll pull them out and take a look though.
However after this work was done it threw a CEL. I took it back to the dealer and the technician said it was 'low fuel'
I didn't ask for the specific code and just dismissed it as a glitch. I would imagine this would lend itself toward the fueling problem.I should also add that the penultimate (before last) time it threw a CEL was when the car was cold. I was getting in and kicked the gas pedal. The revs rose quick but it didn't hit any limiters. Also it threw a code when I detailed the engine bay and washed the grime off. SOrry I know thats probably not a good thing to do
That could be the cause of the CPS code which could be a red herring.I'm going to run another tank of injector cleaner through and will see how that works. I'll keep this thread updated if anything else happens.
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From: Milwaukee Area
My friend, I think you are not listening to use very well, and it's a little aggravating. 
You have a VERY IMPORTANT INDICATION to you about your Check Engine Light. First, CEL's don't just come on for no reason. There is SOMETHING WRONG. That said, misfires are EXTREMLY unlikely to be fixed by just running fuel cleaner through your car, as SlowS2k pointed out.
Now onto the important part.
You have a CEL/DTC code that says:
P1359 Crankshaft Position (CKP)/Top Dead Center (TDC) Sensor Circuit
Malfunction
THIS IS THE ROOT OF YOUR PROBLEMS!!! It's unfortunate that you listened to the ONE person who gave you BAD advice in this thread, telling you it was your fuel system. While his intentions were good, he was WAY off base. All the injectors and fuels and fuel cleaners in the WORLD aren't gonna fix that Crankshaft Position Sensor.
So.... YOU NEED TO GET THE CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR FIXED AT A DEALERSHIP, OTHERWISE THE CEL WILL NOT GO AWAY AND YOU COULD RISK CAUSING DAMAGE AND COSTING YOU A LOT OF MONEY!
I hope I have made my point more clearly now. You asked for advice, and you're getting good advice from us people that know. However, you seem to be selectively ignoring that advice.
You have a VERY IMPORTANT INDICATION to you about your Check Engine Light. First, CEL's don't just come on for no reason. There is SOMETHING WRONG. That said, misfires are EXTREMLY unlikely to be fixed by just running fuel cleaner through your car, as SlowS2k pointed out.
Now onto the important part.
You have a CEL/DTC code that says:
P1359 Crankshaft Position (CKP)/Top Dead Center (TDC) Sensor Circuit
Malfunction
THIS IS THE ROOT OF YOUR PROBLEMS!!! It's unfortunate that you listened to the ONE person who gave you BAD advice in this thread, telling you it was your fuel system. While his intentions were good, he was WAY off base. All the injectors and fuels and fuel cleaners in the WORLD aren't gonna fix that Crankshaft Position Sensor.
So.... YOU NEED TO GET THE CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR FIXED AT A DEALERSHIP, OTHERWISE THE CEL WILL NOT GO AWAY AND YOU COULD RISK CAUSING DAMAGE AND COSTING YOU A LOT OF MONEY!
I hope I have made my point more clearly now. You asked for advice, and you're getting good advice from us people that know. However, you seem to be selectively ignoring that advice.