Switched over to Redline synthetic
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Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,937
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From: houston
I decided yesterday that at 12,500 miles it was officially time to convert the car to synthetic status.
I ordered a case of Redline 10W-30 about a week ago after debating back and forth whether or not to use their 10W-30 or 5W-40. After extensive research, specifically from reading this thread(see link below) which ironically another concerned Texas citizen started, I decided to go with the 10W-30 and not look back. I took the car out and drove over to the Honda dealership to get one of the new OEM filters to see what all the fuss was about. I have 7 HAMP filters in the garage but wanted to pick up one of the new OEM's to see how much of a difference there was between the two. It appears to be a very well constructed filter and I like the additional size it provides over the smaller HAMP.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultima...t=004855#000000
So I come home, prop the car up on the jack stands, and start the drain process. Being the super anal car freak that I am I let the oil drain for about three hours or so....or at least until the drips coming from the Fumoto valve had fallen to a 10 second interval. I then changed out the oil filter, cleaned up the underbody and x-brace, and closed up the valve. I let each quart sit in the funnel for about 15 minutes trying desperately to get every last drop out of there. At $7 a quart I do some strange things apparently.
After another thirty minutes or so of simply putting the oil into the engine the final moment had arrived. I cleaned up the work area, changed clothes, and then got in the car. The moment I pressed the start button I really couldn't feel too much of a difference. I wanted to convince myself that the motor was quieter and running easier but I couldn't tell immediately. After thirty seconds or so in reverse, backing out of the driveway, my worries were laid to rest. Immediately upon take off I could feel that the engine had smoothed out tremendously and that there was much less friction going on. It only got better with time. After about ten minutes or so I was taking the revs up to 5k and without a doubt could tell that the engine was rotating in bliss.
I am now officially sold on synthetic oil. This is the first time I have ever used it in any of my cars. If I were to do it again I would have put it in there sooner. Right around the 7,500-8k mile mark would have been perfect in hindsight. Regardless, I am more than pleased with the results and thought I would share them with everyone else.
A big thanks to Redline for the smile you put on my car's face.
I ordered a case of Redline 10W-30 about a week ago after debating back and forth whether or not to use their 10W-30 or 5W-40. After extensive research, specifically from reading this thread(see link below) which ironically another concerned Texas citizen started, I decided to go with the 10W-30 and not look back. I took the car out and drove over to the Honda dealership to get one of the new OEM filters to see what all the fuss was about. I have 7 HAMP filters in the garage but wanted to pick up one of the new OEM's to see how much of a difference there was between the two. It appears to be a very well constructed filter and I like the additional size it provides over the smaller HAMP.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultima...t=004855#000000
So I come home, prop the car up on the jack stands, and start the drain process. Being the super anal car freak that I am I let the oil drain for about three hours or so....or at least until the drips coming from the Fumoto valve had fallen to a 10 second interval. I then changed out the oil filter, cleaned up the underbody and x-brace, and closed up the valve. I let each quart sit in the funnel for about 15 minutes trying desperately to get every last drop out of there. At $7 a quart I do some strange things apparently.
After another thirty minutes or so of simply putting the oil into the engine the final moment had arrived. I cleaned up the work area, changed clothes, and then got in the car. The moment I pressed the start button I really couldn't feel too much of a difference. I wanted to convince myself that the motor was quieter and running easier but I couldn't tell immediately. After thirty seconds or so in reverse, backing out of the driveway, my worries were laid to rest. Immediately upon take off I could feel that the engine had smoothed out tremendously and that there was much less friction going on. It only got better with time. After about ten minutes or so I was taking the revs up to 5k and without a doubt could tell that the engine was rotating in bliss.
I am now officially sold on synthetic oil. This is the first time I have ever used it in any of my cars. If I were to do it again I would have put it in there sooner. Right around the 7,500-8k mile mark would have been perfect in hindsight. Regardless, I am more than pleased with the results and thought I would share them with everyone else.
A big thanks to Redline for the smile you put on my car's face.
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Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Irvine
Excellent choice!
That "RC211V" fellow from you link had such a convincing, well written post that even the chemists at Mobil 1 would switch. What a brilliant chap!
BTW, now that you have switched, you can't go back to another oil, espically a dino, without increased wear. But why would you anyway.
You should easily be able to hit 5K miles with this oil, based on my UOA on the 'teg and Type R owners who track their car, even longer depending on your conditions. This oil is so robust that even the grueling demands of WOT at the track show wear close to mine, with no track miles
! Once I hit around 10K, I will be putting RL in since I cringe at hitting redline with a dino. 
Are you planning on doing a UOA? If you do, consider yourself the first.
Apparently!
Hats off to your patience.
That "RC211V" fellow from you link had such a convincing, well written post that even the chemists at Mobil 1 would switch. What a brilliant chap!
BTW, now that you have switched, you can't go back to another oil, espically a dino, without increased wear. But why would you anyway.
You should easily be able to hit 5K miles with this oil, based on my UOA on the 'teg and Type R owners who track their car, even longer depending on your conditions. This oil is so robust that even the grueling demands of WOT at the track show wear close to mine, with no track miles
! Once I hit around 10K, I will be putting RL in since I cringe at hitting redline with a dino. Are you planning on doing a UOA? If you do, consider yourself the first.
Being the super anal car freak that I am I let the oil drain for about three hours or so....or at least until the drips coming from the Fumoto valve had fallen to a 10 second interval. I then changed out the oil filter, cleaned up the underbody and x-brace, and closed up the valve. I let each quart sit in the funnel for about 15 minutes trying desperately to get every last drop out of there. At $7 a quart I do some strange things apparently
Hats off to your patience.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 2
From: Midlothian
Honda606 - good choice. I have used, analyzed, performed oil analyses upon, and recommended both the Amsoil Series 2000 0w30, the "regular" 10w30, and RedLine 10w30 for many years, and on this Forum.
Some general comments:
1) The notion that Amsoil is oriented towards "long drain intervals" and not "high performance use" is specious. The elements that make up a great oil: quality base stock, best additives, shear stability, seal compatibility, total base number (TBN), etc. are as high in Amsoil, and perhaps higher, than Red Line.
2) Esters do have the highest temperature stability, true. That is their biggest advantage, although their film strength is also generally higher. But we are talking base stocks. An oil's performance has to be factored as a total package. It doesn't matter to me whether high film strength or slightly less but better anti-wear compounds do the job, as long as the oil has the former or enough of the latter to cover my drain intervals. Amsoil does - I have analyses to prove it.
"In many ways esters are very similar to the more commonly known and used synthetic hydrocarbons or PAOs. Like PAOs, esters are synthesized from relatively pure and simple starting materials to produce predetermined molecular structures designed specifically for high performance lubrication. Both types of synthetic basestocks are primarily branched hydrocarbons which are thermally and oxidatively stable, have high viscosity indices, and lack the undesirable and unstable impurities found in conventional petroleum based oils. The primary structural difference between esters and PAOs is the presence of multiple ester linkages (COOR) in esters which impart polarity to the molecules. This polarity affects the way esters behave as lubricants in the following ways:
Volatility: The polarity of the ester molecules causes them to be attracted to one another and this intermolecular attraction requires more energy (heat) for the esters to transfer from a liquid to a gaseous state. Therefore, at a given molecular weight or viscosity, the esters will exhibit a lower vapor pressure which translates into a higher flash point and a lower rate of evaporation for the lubricant. Generally speaking, the more ester linkages in a specific ester, the higher its flash point and the lower its volatility.
Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to penetrate. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications.
Detergency/Dispersency: The polar nature of esters also makes them good solvents and dispersants. This allows the esters to solubilize or disperse oil degradation by-products which might otherwise be deposited as varnish or sludge, and translates into cleaner operation and improved additive solubility in the final lubricant.
Biodegradability: While stable against oxidative and thermal breakdown, the ester linkage provides a vulnerable site for microbes to begin their work of biodegrading the ester molecule. This translates into very high biodegradability rates for ester lubricants and allows more environmentally friendly products to be formulated.
Another important difference between esters and PAOs is the incredible versatility in the design of ester molecules due to the high number of commercially available acids and alcohols from which to choose. For example, if one is seeking a 6 cSt (at 100?C) synthetic basestock, the choices available with PAOs are a "straight cut" 6 cSt product or a "dumbbell" blend of a lighter and heavier PAO. In either case, the properties of the resulting basestock are essentially the same. With esters, literally dozens of 6 cSt products can be designed, each with a different chemical structure selected for the specific desired property. This allows the "ester engineer" to custom design the structure of the ester molecules to an optimized set of properties determined by the end customer or defined by the application. The performance properties that can be varied in ester design include viscosity, viscosity index, volatility, high temperature coking tendencies, biodegradability, lubricity, hydrolytic stability, additive solubility, and seal compatibility.
As with any product, there are also drawbacks to esters. The most common concern when formulating with ester basestocks is compatibility with the elastomer materials used in the seals. All esters will tend to swell and soften most elastomer seals however, the degree to which they do so can be controlled through proper selection. When seal swell is desirable, such as in balancing the seal shrinkage and hardening characteristics of PAOs, more polar esters should be used such as those with lower molecular weight and/or higher number of ester linkages. When used as the exclusive basestock, the ester should be designed for compatibility with seals or the seals should be changed to those types which are more compatible with esters.
Another potential concern with esters is their ability to react with water or hydrolyze under certain conditions. Generally this hydrolysis reaction requires the presence of significant amounts of water and heat with a relatively strong acid or base to catalyze the reaction. Since esters are usually used in very high temperature applications, high amounts of water are generally not present and hydrolysis is rarely a problem in actual use. Where the application environment may lead to hydrolysis, the ester structure can be designed to greatly improve its hydrolytic stability and additives can be selected to minimize any effects." 1.
One property of esters that is not often understood is that their polarity makes them "attracted" to the negatively charged metal in the engine. In an aluminum engine, that is primarily the cam lobes - which just happens to be one of the last areas to see oil from a startup, and where some of the highest wear occurs. So for a car stored for a very long time, an ester-based synoil provides the best peace of mind, second only to a pre-oiler, but without the added expense, complexity, leakpoint, etc.
The higher wear rates of some metals that were reported by some posters is unusual - I would speculate that is a by-product of one of the anti-wear compounds, seal stabilizers, or the dreaded hydrolysis. That would not be enough for me to drop Red Line in favor of Amsoil Series 2000.
1. Source: Hatco Coporation (thx jankemi for the citation)
Some general comments:
1) The notion that Amsoil is oriented towards "long drain intervals" and not "high performance use" is specious. The elements that make up a great oil: quality base stock, best additives, shear stability, seal compatibility, total base number (TBN), etc. are as high in Amsoil, and perhaps higher, than Red Line.
2) Esters do have the highest temperature stability, true. That is their biggest advantage, although their film strength is also generally higher. But we are talking base stocks. An oil's performance has to be factored as a total package. It doesn't matter to me whether high film strength or slightly less but better anti-wear compounds do the job, as long as the oil has the former or enough of the latter to cover my drain intervals. Amsoil does - I have analyses to prove it.
"In many ways esters are very similar to the more commonly known and used synthetic hydrocarbons or PAOs. Like PAOs, esters are synthesized from relatively pure and simple starting materials to produce predetermined molecular structures designed specifically for high performance lubrication. Both types of synthetic basestocks are primarily branched hydrocarbons which are thermally and oxidatively stable, have high viscosity indices, and lack the undesirable and unstable impurities found in conventional petroleum based oils. The primary structural difference between esters and PAOs is the presence of multiple ester linkages (COOR) in esters which impart polarity to the molecules. This polarity affects the way esters behave as lubricants in the following ways:
Volatility: The polarity of the ester molecules causes them to be attracted to one another and this intermolecular attraction requires more energy (heat) for the esters to transfer from a liquid to a gaseous state. Therefore, at a given molecular weight or viscosity, the esters will exhibit a lower vapor pressure which translates into a higher flash point and a lower rate of evaporation for the lubricant. Generally speaking, the more ester linkages in a specific ester, the higher its flash point and the lower its volatility.
Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to penetrate. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications.
Detergency/Dispersency: The polar nature of esters also makes them good solvents and dispersants. This allows the esters to solubilize or disperse oil degradation by-products which might otherwise be deposited as varnish or sludge, and translates into cleaner operation and improved additive solubility in the final lubricant.
Biodegradability: While stable against oxidative and thermal breakdown, the ester linkage provides a vulnerable site for microbes to begin their work of biodegrading the ester molecule. This translates into very high biodegradability rates for ester lubricants and allows more environmentally friendly products to be formulated.
Another important difference between esters and PAOs is the incredible versatility in the design of ester molecules due to the high number of commercially available acids and alcohols from which to choose. For example, if one is seeking a 6 cSt (at 100?C) synthetic basestock, the choices available with PAOs are a "straight cut" 6 cSt product or a "dumbbell" blend of a lighter and heavier PAO. In either case, the properties of the resulting basestock are essentially the same. With esters, literally dozens of 6 cSt products can be designed, each with a different chemical structure selected for the specific desired property. This allows the "ester engineer" to custom design the structure of the ester molecules to an optimized set of properties determined by the end customer or defined by the application. The performance properties that can be varied in ester design include viscosity, viscosity index, volatility, high temperature coking tendencies, biodegradability, lubricity, hydrolytic stability, additive solubility, and seal compatibility.
As with any product, there are also drawbacks to esters. The most common concern when formulating with ester basestocks is compatibility with the elastomer materials used in the seals. All esters will tend to swell and soften most elastomer seals however, the degree to which they do so can be controlled through proper selection. When seal swell is desirable, such as in balancing the seal shrinkage and hardening characteristics of PAOs, more polar esters should be used such as those with lower molecular weight and/or higher number of ester linkages. When used as the exclusive basestock, the ester should be designed for compatibility with seals or the seals should be changed to those types which are more compatible with esters.
Another potential concern with esters is their ability to react with water or hydrolyze under certain conditions. Generally this hydrolysis reaction requires the presence of significant amounts of water and heat with a relatively strong acid or base to catalyze the reaction. Since esters are usually used in very high temperature applications, high amounts of water are generally not present and hydrolysis is rarely a problem in actual use. Where the application environment may lead to hydrolysis, the ester structure can be designed to greatly improve its hydrolytic stability and additives can be selected to minimize any effects." 1.
One property of esters that is not often understood is that their polarity makes them "attracted" to the negatively charged metal in the engine. In an aluminum engine, that is primarily the cam lobes - which just happens to be one of the last areas to see oil from a startup, and where some of the highest wear occurs. So for a car stored for a very long time, an ester-based synoil provides the best peace of mind, second only to a pre-oiler, but without the added expense, complexity, leakpoint, etc.
The higher wear rates of some metals that were reported by some posters is unusual - I would speculate that is a by-product of one of the anti-wear compounds, seal stabilizers, or the dreaded hydrolysis. That would not be enough for me to drop Red Line in favor of Amsoil Series 2000.
1. Source: Hatco Coporation (thx jankemi for the citation)
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,806
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From: NYC
^ I think I just got smarter
Road Rage, when are you planning on switching your dino oil to synthetic on your 2004. I know you've mentioned putting Mr. Moly at 1000 miles. So are you going with Amsoil or Redline when you switch? Thanks, you knowledge is well appreciated
Road Rage, when are you planning on switching your dino oil to synthetic on your 2004. I know you've mentioned putting Mr. Moly at 1000 miles. So are you going with Amsoil or Redline when you switch? Thanks, you knowledge is well appreciated
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 2
From: Midlothian
I will switch at one year, which should be in the 3-4k range. I am not sure what I will use - leaning towards 0w30 Amsoil Series 2000 (or S2000 - what a coincidence) but then putting in the Red Line for the long winter "no start" intervals. I will likely go with the 0w30 first, and look for any leaking/weeping from the seals.
I forgot to weigh-in on the viscosity issue - with the top synoils, I think a 30 weight is perfect - as has been pointed out, between the effective viscosity (as seen dynamically in the bearings and cam lobes) and the higher film strength and quality anti-wear additives, a 30 weight synoil is comparable to a 40 weight in protection, but will suck less HP and mileage.
If I ran on the Autobahn for hours at a time in summer, I might spring for a 5w40, which is why they call that formulation "European Car".
I forgot to weigh-in on the viscosity issue - with the top synoils, I think a 30 weight is perfect - as has been pointed out, between the effective viscosity (as seen dynamically in the bearings and cam lobes) and the higher film strength and quality anti-wear additives, a 30 weight synoil is comparable to a 40 weight in protection, but will suck less HP and mileage.
If I ran on the Autobahn for hours at a time in summer, I might spring for a 5w40, which is why they call that formulation "European Car".
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Registered User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 131
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From: Irvine
RR,
We all admire and appreciate your contribution in regards to lubrication, which has allowed people to make educated, informed decisions on their oil choice, yet, the above post raises a flag.
Your post above regarding Esters mimics content, nearly word for word, that is property of their respective owner(s). Therefore, I would suggest that either you state it in your own words or provide credit to the original authors. In some cases, permission is needed before other content can be posted. There was a rather large fiasco regarding copyright information and posting it here without credit a few months back. Perform a search and you will discover this for yourself.
Just looking out for a fellow oil guru.
We all admire and appreciate your contribution in regards to lubrication, which has allowed people to make educated, informed decisions on their oil choice, yet, the above post raises a flag.
Your post above regarding Esters mimics content, nearly word for word, that is property of their respective owner(s). Therefore, I would suggest that either you state it in your own words or provide credit to the original authors. In some cases, permission is needed before other content can be posted. There was a rather large fiasco regarding copyright information and posting it here without credit a few months back. Perform a search and you will discover this for yourself.
Just looking out for a fellow oil guru.