Syncro help on an AP2
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Syncro help on an AP2
2004 AP2 (Australian model).
When cold she has been clipping first to second and third to second. When warm not the same issues but sometimes fourth to fifth clips as well. By clipping i kinda mean that it doesn't feel syncronised properly.
I had the whole clutch replaced free which i thought may cure some issues with the car, but the gear thing is still there.
Bought the car at 40,000km and it has 57,000km now. Are they really that fragile?
Honda is now asking me the best part of 5,000 Aus to rebuild the 2nd gear syncro. I am pretty stuffed as here there are only two half decent dealers in a 2000km range!
Should the box be silky smooth from cold, and what major damage will i be doing driving it around.
I don't believe the car has been tracked and it seemed well looked after before i got the car
When cold she has been clipping first to second and third to second. When warm not the same issues but sometimes fourth to fifth clips as well. By clipping i kinda mean that it doesn't feel syncronised properly.
I had the whole clutch replaced free which i thought may cure some issues with the car, but the gear thing is still there.
Bought the car at 40,000km and it has 57,000km now. Are they really that fragile?
Honda is now asking me the best part of 5,000 Aus to rebuild the 2nd gear syncro. I am pretty stuffed as here there are only two half decent dealers in a 2000km range!
Should the box be silky smooth from cold, and what major damage will i be doing driving it around.
I don't believe the car has been tracked and it seemed well looked after before i got the car
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Lower Mainland
Sounds like your car is pretty normal to tell you the truth.
MY05 has always been notchy 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd (not as much) when it's cold. After 20minutes of driving it's perfect again. I also notice that it's not notchy as much right after I flush the tranny fluid, but it goes back to it's old ways usually a month after the flush.
and yes I track my car quite often, but not auto X so my tranny hardly ever sees a hard 1-2 shift.
MY05 has always been notchy 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd (not as much) when it's cold. After 20minutes of driving it's perfect again. I also notice that it's not notchy as much right after I flush the tranny fluid, but it goes back to it's old ways usually a month after the flush.
and yes I track my car quite often, but not auto X so my tranny hardly ever sees a hard 1-2 shift.
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: 17 ft below sea level.
The linkage between the shifter and the shift fork is all steel bars.
No flex, no cables.
Okay.. one small pastic bearing cup at the bottom of the shifter.
A "clipping" feel while shifting could be normal due to the direct linkage, you actually feel what happens inside the gearbox
What gearbox oil do you use?
When was it last changed?
Have you ever changed the clutch hydraulics fluid?
Is there much play in the clutch pedal?
With play I mean: when you start to push the pedal, there are 2 kinds of play.
First you feel the mechanical play in the pedal > master piston linkage.
Second you feel the "play" in the hydraulics, the pressure starts to build-up to push the slave out to push the fork away to disengage the clutch.
The first mechanical play may be adjusted to a minimum, make sure there is some left to avoid "riding the clutch".
Adjustment is done at the pedal, its pretty simple.
The second "play" should always be there!
When changing clutch fluid, avoid getting air in the system.
Bleeding is not hard but must be done right because the slave's bleeder doesn't always let all the air out.
There are several topics on bleeding the clutch in UTH.
No flex, no cables.
Okay.. one small pastic bearing cup at the bottom of the shifter.
A "clipping" feel while shifting could be normal due to the direct linkage, you actually feel what happens inside the gearbox
What gearbox oil do you use?
When was it last changed?
Have you ever changed the clutch hydraulics fluid?
Is there much play in the clutch pedal?
With play I mean: when you start to push the pedal, there are 2 kinds of play.
First you feel the mechanical play in the pedal > master piston linkage.
Second you feel the "play" in the hydraulics, the pressure starts to build-up to push the slave out to push the fork away to disengage the clutch.
The first mechanical play may be adjusted to a minimum, make sure there is some left to avoid "riding the clutch".
Adjustment is done at the pedal, its pretty simple.
The second "play" should always be there!
When changing clutch fluid, avoid getting air in the system.
Bleeding is not hard but must be done right because the slave's bleeder doesn't always let all the air out.
There are several topics on bleeding the clutch in UTH.
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What gearbox oil do you use? Honda's own, what do you recommend?
When was it last changed? Done 10k miles ago, or at clutch change?
Have you ever changed the clutch hydraulics fluid? Yes new clutch 600 miles ago
Is there much play in the clutch pedal? Again, new clutch fitted 600 miles ago
With play I mean: when you start to push the pedal, there are 2 kinds of play.
First you feel the mechanical play in the pedal > master piston linkage.
Second you feel the "play" in the hydraulics, the pressure starts to build-up to push the slave out to push the fork away to disengage the clutch.
The first mechanical play may be adjusted to a minimum, make sure there is some left to avoid "riding the clutch".
Adjustment is done at the pedal, its pretty simple.
The second "play" should always be there!
I will get back to you on the pedal, i think you have described it well
The problem i have is that these Technicians genuinely don't see many of these cars, and have no real clue what is right or wrong. I can't really help tham as i am pretty green to the cars too.
I know whats right in other cars, and so do they.
Before i owned a Noble. Now if you didnt know the cars you would swear the gear linkage was screwed as its like stirring porridge looking for a gear. Thats their trait. I am happy if a notchy feel is a trait of the Honda.
What i dont want is Honda to totally dismantle the gearbox, charge me an arm and two legs, just to find its the same
I would ask local owners if i could take their cars out, but i dont know anyone well enough to do that. Also this is not always helpful, as i have bought
When was it last changed? Done 10k miles ago, or at clutch change?
Have you ever changed the clutch hydraulics fluid? Yes new clutch 600 miles ago
Is there much play in the clutch pedal? Again, new clutch fitted 600 miles ago
With play I mean: when you start to push the pedal, there are 2 kinds of play.
First you feel the mechanical play in the pedal > master piston linkage.
Second you feel the "play" in the hydraulics, the pressure starts to build-up to push the slave out to push the fork away to disengage the clutch.
The first mechanical play may be adjusted to a minimum, make sure there is some left to avoid "riding the clutch".
Adjustment is done at the pedal, its pretty simple.
The second "play" should always be there!
I will get back to you on the pedal, i think you have described it well
The problem i have is that these Technicians genuinely don't see many of these cars, and have no real clue what is right or wrong. I can't really help tham as i am pretty green to the cars too.
I know whats right in other cars, and so do they.
Before i owned a Noble. Now if you didnt know the cars you would swear the gear linkage was screwed as its like stirring porridge looking for a gear. Thats their trait. I am happy if a notchy feel is a trait of the Honda.
What i dont want is Honda to totally dismantle the gearbox, charge me an arm and two legs, just to find its the same
I would ask local owners if i could take their cars out, but i dont know anyone well enough to do that. Also this is not always helpful, as i have bought
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,953
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From: 17 ft below sea level.
adamjgriffin Posted on Dec 6 2008, 02:35 AM
That may be reduced to almost nothing.
Its pretty simple:
Loosen nut #3 (IIRC 10mm open spanner) and turn the rod until play is almost gone, then tighten the nut while holding the rod in place (IIRC it takes a 6mm or 7mm open spanner)
Check & double check that there IS still some play after tightning it all down and pressing the pedal a couple of times.
Just a little more master stroke (= slave stroke) may be all you need.
Edit. My pedal has three stages. 1, 5mm of movement that does nothing.
Its pretty simple:
Loosen nut #3 (IIRC 10mm open spanner) and turn the rod until play is almost gone, then tighten the nut while holding the rod in place (IIRC it takes a 6mm or 7mm open spanner)
Check & double check that there IS still some play after tightning it all down and pressing the pedal a couple of times.
Just a little more master stroke (= slave stroke) may be all you need.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,953
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From: 17 ft below sea level.
adamjgriffin Posted on Dec 6 2008, 02:35 AM
A bit late to answer.. but did you get the new type Honda MTF III?
(Silver bottle, white cap IIRC)
I don't recommend anything, most use Honda MTF III, some use Amsoil, GMSFM (is what I use), Redline, no real winner as far as I know.
So far I'm happy with the GMSFM but most "feel" it doesn't last long.
There is still some GMSFM left, I don't know what I'll be using after that.
One big factor is how the clutch pedal is adjusted and how well your hand & foot are coordinated and the last thing is kinda hard to measure
What I do recommend is to NOT stick to the OEM recommended gear box oil change interval, IOW change it sooner, let's say after 15000 km or so.
It only hurts the wallet a little (less than 2 liters) and it may save the day when it comes to bearings.
I also slightly overfill the trans by 150-200 ml.
(Don't overdo it^)
adamjgriffin Posted on Dec 15 2008, 09:14 AM
You're welcome
Did it work?
As in: did you notice any difference?
What gearbox oil do you use? Honda's own, what do you recommend?
(Silver bottle, white cap IIRC)
I don't recommend anything, most use Honda MTF III, some use Amsoil, GMSFM (is what I use), Redline, no real winner as far as I know.
So far I'm happy with the GMSFM but most "feel" it doesn't last long.
There is still some GMSFM left, I don't know what I'll be using after that.
One big factor is how the clutch pedal is adjusted and how well your hand & foot are coordinated and the last thing is kinda hard to measure
What I do recommend is to NOT stick to the OEM recommended gear box oil change interval, IOW change it sooner, let's say after 15000 km or so.
It only hurts the wallet a little (less than 2 liters) and it may save the day when it comes to bearings.
I also slightly overfill the trans by 150-200 ml.
(Don't overdo it^)
adamjgriffin Posted on Dec 15 2008, 09:14 AM
Well sorted that tiny bit of play out, thanks for the pic.
Did it work?
As in: did you notice any difference?
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From: Lafayette, LA
In order to get a racier feel, Honda spec'ed a sporty gearbox. The Aisin 6 speed has reducer gear at the tranny output, rather than at the input. Add the high engine speed at the input side to the tranny. So you are changing gears while the tranny's main- and counter-shafts rotate at relatively high speed. This makes the gears rather notchy, since the synchro's have to work at high speeds. A bit of grinding, especially into 2nd gear, is pretty common on this car, especially when tranny oil is still cold.
You will learn the soft smooth technique required to adjust for it. I have a billet short shifter in mine, and the following is my experience. If you pause a half-second mid-shift to allow for the engine rpm to drop, it will go into 2nd easier. Don't rush the 1-2 shift and don't ram the shifter down hard. It's mostly a matter of timing and feeling what's going on in the gearbox (through feedback from the shifter knob).
You will learn the soft smooth technique required to adjust for it. I have a billet short shifter in mine, and the following is my experience. If you pause a half-second mid-shift to allow for the engine rpm to drop, it will go into 2nd easier. Don't rush the 1-2 shift and don't ram the shifter down hard. It's mostly a matter of timing and feeling what's going on in the gearbox (through feedback from the shifter knob).
