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[QUOTE=Y2A,Sep 19 2004, 11:15 PM] hmm, so u LIKE turbos but LOVE NA? and u wanna make a little more power? What do u mean by a "little more power?" The s2k's motor is designed to be a high output NA motor, since the stock compression is pretty high(11:1). But since u want a little more power, then go with the basic boltons(i/h/e), then do PnP and cams, then if u can afford it, get a AEM EMS and dyno tune that biatch. But if u wanna go all out for NA power, get ITBs.
If you upgrade the head, you will NEED a revised intake manifold to see some better gains running N/A. Not just the TB, the whole intake mani itself. The reason why turbo_pwr's setup didn't do too well IMO is that the runners on the ITB's just weren't sufficient for the headwork he had. With the Alaniz modified head, the harmonics of the stock intake mani is out of tune.
Originally Posted by phoenix9999,Apr 11 2004, 03:55 PM
Pardon the simple question... what are the salient differences in engine design that would allow some small engines (I'm thinking of the 2.0L from the Evo) to generate 300hp/300ft-lbs with factory backing while others (ours in the S2k) do not?
I'm assuming (and I recognize this is a big assumption) that the S2000's engine off the factory floor wouldn't handle the ~ 300 ft-lbs torque output quite as reliably as what's in the Evo, just because it hasn't been engineered to do so. IF that assumption is correct (let me know if it isn't) then what are the engineering differences between these blocks?
Hmmm... The thread seems to have drifted off-topic a bit. To get back to your original question...
The major design difference, you ask? The EVO is turbo charged, the S2000 is not.
Now, are you also asking what are the typical design differences between a high-reving NA engine and a high boost turbo engine? Hmm, compression ratio, valve timing, block/head/crank/piston/valve design and materials, cooling design, ECU software, yadda yadda yadda... I don't know all the particulars, sorry.
the evo has thicker walls, cast iron construction, and a closed deck design. Generally, it is built up to withstand boost. I think stock it's something like 16psi. The motor itself isn't very efficient as it takes a lot of boost to make power; this is due mostly to the weight of internals, which limits max RPM. If the F20C could do 16psi, you'd probably have 400HP+.
Alas, the F20C can't do 16psi stock. The F20C was made to be as small and light as possible. The dimensions are close to that of the D16s actually. The block is aluminum with carbon-aluminum (FRM) liners. The bores are close together, too, making the walls THIN, which limits the boost it could handle. On top of that it has high compression. Now, in the F20C, the internals are as light as possible, meaning it can do high rpm and make torque up high and thus lots of power.
The motors take two completely different approaches to making power. Now, if you changed the roles and turbo'd the F20C it would make insane power and if the Evo motor were NA it would make like 120HP. Of course, the F20C isn't built for boost, but with 5-6psi, it would match the power of the EVO (but not the torque; the power still comes from high RPM).
Originally Posted by steven975,Sep 20 2004, 12:18 PM
I'll add a little.
the evo has thicker walls, cast iron construction, and a closed deck design. Generally, it is built up to withstand boost. I think stock it's something like 16psi. The motor itself isn't very efficient as it takes a lot of boost to make power; this is due mostly to the weight of internals, which limits max RPM. If the F20C could do 16psi, you'd probably have 400HP+.
Alas, the F20C can't do 16psi stock. The F20C was made to be as small and light as possible. The dimensions are close to that of the D16s actually. The block is aluminum with carbon-aluminum (FRM) liners. The bores are close together, too, making the walls THIN, which limits the boost it could handle. On top of that it has high compression. Now, in the F20C, the internals are as light as possible, meaning it can do high rpm and make torque up high and thus lots of power.
The motors take two completely different approaches to making power. Now, if you changed the roles and turbo'd the F20C it would make insane power and if the Evo motor were NA it would make like 120HP. Of course, the F20C isn't built for boost, but with 5-6psi, it would match the power of the EVO (but not the torque; the power still comes from high RPM).
That makes sense. I think its safe to run around 7psi of boost. And that's all the power I need so I'm gonna do it
jakub2000, your last statement is getting very inflammatory. Please don't do this again. Everyone is entitled to their opinion without the consequences of name-calling. If someone else started the name-calling first, then fine, have at it (for a while).
You say drag racing is "retarded"? Well, there are HUGE groups of people all over this globe who would think pushing a little car around in circles as a pretty
thing to do. There are also other HUGE groups of people who make BIG bucks selling stuff to drag racers. You can't argue economics and if that's what makes the world go round, there must be something to drag racing, huh?
Don't slam something just because you don't like it or have little understanding of. When was the last time you squeezed over 6000 HP out of ANY engine?
Originally Posted by kane.s2k,Sep 20 2004, 12:50 PM
If you upgrade the head, you will NEED a revised intake manifold to see some better gains running N/A. Not just the TB, the whole intake mani itself. ... With the Alaniz modified head, the harmonics of the stock intake mani is out of tune.
What about FI? Are there benefits to having a "revised" intake manifold coupled with an upgraded head in that instance?
BTW steven, the Vortech kits push @ 7 psi out of the box.
And to the guy who claims an SC makes no difference b/c the gains are not reflected in 1/4 mile and 0-60 times, it's pretty obvious you've never driven on a highway. Of course, if you have, and you're still spouting this , then you're just a tool.
Originally Posted by steven975,Sep 20 2004, 08:29 PM
I wouldn't do that much without an engine management system.
the comptech and vortech kits do 5-5.5psi I think. I know it doesn't sound like a big difference, but it is huge. The SC kits also come with electronics to fool the MAP sensor, too.
The interenals are very strong, yet extremely light. I think the problem will come from detonation first, which could tear a hole in those thin cylinder walls.
By the way, one guy who just posted a couple days ago was making 350 to the wheels (around 400HP+ crank) on just 5.5psi. He had a manifold that looked like a NA header, except pointing forward; it made the package very simple. It's all tuning. The high rpms really magnify power so if you can keep torque up, you'll do great.
Thanks for the input. I have been reseaching the Ultimate Racing Turbo kit and it comes with a piggy back computer with a map pre-loaded. I will go with that setup in order to keep the system reliable.
, then you're just a tool.