Hey guys, I have searched around and read the various VTEC posts but haven't necessarily found exactly what I am looking for. Here is the situation:

I live in Germany and this winter I did a little overhaul on the S to get it ready for a season at the Nurburgring. This included:
- Upgraded oil jet bolts
- Oil pan baffle
- Upgraded retainers
- Carbotech pads
- Brake ducts on all 4 corners

Everything was torqued to spec and after doing the retainers I did a full valve adjustment. When I was doing the retainers one of the VTEC pins had come out when I was removing the valve train but I made sure to put it back in but does it matter which way it goes in (it seemed like it was just floating)? I had taken it out a week ago when it finally warmed up and it seemed to drive fine, except the VTEC engagement sounded a little more abrupt than normal...essentially when it hits VTEC it almost makes a tick noise then goes...however VTEC seemed to pull just fine. Well today on the way to the Ring it seemed to act fine however I also did not really push it on the autobahn going there.

Problem starts here:
About a quarter of the way through my first lap though it was as if the car starting having problems getting into VTEC. Basically I shifted into 4th and the car was stuttering as if at redline or something and I could kind of hear VTEC almost engaging and disengaging quickly. I took it easy the rest of the lap since I was unsure of whether pushing it was damaging the car. At no time did any check engine or oil lights come on even if I tried pushing through the stutter, it just wouldn't go.

On the autobahn headed home I decided to give it another try since I was wondering if the oil baffle and maneuvering was actually causing oil to be stuck above the baffle. The first try it pulled fine through 3rd and then fell on its face at about 7000 rpm in 4th and in 6th would not go above 6000. This was perfectly straight so I felt like that eliminated the baffle theory. I tried one more time and once again it pulled fine through 3rd except this time went til 5th then died off and I realized it almost seemed as if it was getting worse the longer I continuously stayed in VTEC. Because if I gave it a break for a bit and went again VTEC would engage for a little while then fall off. Otherwise driving around it seems to be just fine, engine is running smooth, no oil burn that I can see. Oil still looks brand new and full (on both sides of the stick).

What I am planning on doing in this order:
- Remove and clean VTEC solenoid
- Remove Valve cover, rechecking valve train bolts, timing, etc
- Recheck valve clearances and VTEC pins
- Last ditch effort remove oil pan, check oil bolt torque and if fine cut out oil pan baffle

In between each of these steps of course I will bring it out and check it. Anyone have ideas as to what else it could be? I have a limited understanding of how the VTEC system works so Billman if you could school me on that a little more or offer your advice it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for your help

 

The vtec pins go in in a specific order and direction.

 

VTEC long pin (hollow) goes in middle rocker. Direction does not matter.
VTEC short pin (solid) goes in side rocker. Direction does not matter.
VTEC stationary/return pin is locked into one side rocker and will not fall out.

If you are REALLY NOT paying attention, you can slide the long pin all the way through into the side rocker, and put the short pin in the middle rocker next to the long pin. Then one rocker will be locked all the time.

SpitfireS had a pretty nice diagram somewhere on how to incorrectly install VTEC pins.

HOWEVER...this can be checked without taking the system apart. Just set each cylinder in position to adjust the valves (no pressure on cam lobes) If the pins are in wrong, you will find one rocker that cannot wiggle up and down independent of the middle rocker. They will be locked together.

You can even push up and down on the middle rocker and see if it floats.

 

This one?



As far as the baffle goes: this does not restrict oil flow and it does not keep oil above the baffle.
So installing a baffle to stop oil being swept away, while this baffle creates oil starvation would be.. a nightmare IF it is true. (but it isn't)
The oil is too thin at operating temp to not flow back into the pump past the baffle, unless it is swept away.
If it did you would have suffered repeatedly from oil starvation by now, and your engine would be toast, with a CEL flashing.
And, you will see the oil pressure warning light ON at idle - and you didn't mention this so I guess you don't.

IIRC in one of the - relatively recent - "I don't have VTEC" posts the problem was a loose cam tower bolt, resulting in oil pressure loss during VTEC.

And I hope you're not using a racing 60 weight oil.
I remember one post, by a German guy, having a scored #4 cylinder after some extended high RPM Autobahn drives using a 60 weight oil.

 

Thanks guys, I will check both these cases. I suppose I could have put the pin in incorrectly since I wasn't sure which side of the center rocker it came out of and may have put it back in wrong? Not sure, either way I think I do remember one of the center VTEC rockers sticking a little...would this problem potentially describe what I am getting? I did read the post about the loose bolt so that and checking these pins without removing the valve train is next. I already cleaned the filter which did seem to fix the "abrupt" solid tick noise I heard when VTEC first engages and there was a fair amount of small particulates in it. I remember another post about springs in the VTEC system as well...I don't remember seeing springs (other than obviously valve springs) could I have missed something there?

What confuses me the most is how it seems to engage fine until I really push it, like if I didn't go on the autobahn or racetrack I might not notice it since it pulls just fine until 180-190 kph and then falls on its face. It is as if I am losing oil pressure somewhere...god I hope its not the oil jet bolts...I would love a loose cam bolt or VTEC pin haha. Thanks for the help, keep the inputs coming.

Oh an no I am running ol' 5W30 dinosaur blood

Edit: Afterthought...the more I think about it the more I think I installed the 2nd cylinder pin wrong because I think the long one fell out the right side and I put it back in the left side but had to push the other pin in more. I believe this is also the one which had a rocker sticking with it. Maybe I am only noticing this at the higher speeds because I am losing a valve essentially and am simply power limited at that point...just thinking out loud

 

Alright, now I am stumped... I have the valve cover off, all VTEC pins are properly installed, valves properly adjusted. The bolts all seemed nice and snug although one of them had a few threads that look stressed, towards the top for that matter which just seems weird. The cams also seemed to be held down oddly, like when I relieved pressure they kinda popped up out a bit. I'll give it a few minutes and see if anyone has further suggestions then I will just put it all back together again very carefully, maybe I torqued the bolts out of order slightly or something...

 

IIRC, officially, you should open-up the valve clearance to max before loosening cam towers to reduce stress on the - thin walled - upper cam caps.
There is always a valve spring pushing the cam up - and those springs are strong.
If you're not carefull you can break them while loosening cam bolts or torquing them down, I guess the trick is to do it in really small steps if you don't want to change valve clearance.

With all the cam tower bolts torqued down, the cam should not move or pop out - is kinda obvious.
I think you mean you saw this with the cam caps off or loosened?

The cams are in correct timing with eachother and the chain sprocket, right?

 

Thanks for the reply Spitfire, yea the pop out occured when I loosened them...it just seemed like maybe the cams were stressed a lil for some reason. Also when I was taking the cams off I did notice the timing didn't seem perfect on the exhaust cam but I could have sworn I triple checked it, this could have been after the cams shifted though. After removing everything I used a tap and die set to just clean up the threads of the one bolt that seemed odd and I made sure to oil the bolts thoroughly and paid very close attention to the exact torque and pattern to tighten them down. The cams seemed to be just fine as it tightened down, last time I did add an extra ft lb or two when tightening it, maybe it didn't like that, or maybe that one bolt was slightly loose or something.

I also went through and rechecked the valves, most were good, 3 of them were a little bit loose but nothing cosmic. The other thing I noticed is the top and bottom cam shaft holders don't seem to line up perfectly. They are definitely in the right order and facing the right direction so maybe I am just being too picky. Going to take a picture and post it shortly

 

Alright so took it out for a drive on the autobahn after getting everything back together and I have a theory...I might just be dumb. I am worried now that maybe the timing was off last time (exhaust cam, by maybe one tooth rotating the marker counter clockwise specifically), not sure how because I had 2 people confirm it but after getting it back together I felt like it ran smoother and was quieter, both valve noise and exhaust. I don't think I noticed it last time since I hadn't driven the car in 6 months but it seemed much quieter at idle today. On the highway my abrupt VTEC engagement was gone and my first run down the road seemed to be fine. Then just before exiting I got on it again and noticed some similar symptoms except less abrupt, felt like it was just more power limited. Did it again going back towards home and felt the same, stuck at about 125 mph in 5th and 133 in 6th (the car has done 148 before).

Tomorrows task will be a compression test, wondering if maybe the timing was off and what sounded like VTEC disengagement was valve contact. Hope not but prepping for the worst. Has anyone seen an S with bent valves that ran fine and didn't have a check engine light? Any other ideas? If I was in the states I probably would never even notice it unfortunately both the autobahn and Nurburgring make me see speeds like this fairly regularly.

 

MAF connection loose? I'd check basic things first before tearing into the head. Spark plugs, different gas station, stuff like that. Coulda got a hold of some crappy gas