Ferrari Encounter - Is this typical?
 

Pulled into a McD's for lunch today, and parked in an isolated corner spot within the lines. As I was getting out, a Modena driven by a young man, I would guess around thirty, (w/ his peroxide blonde, silicone included) pulls up besides me and takes 2 spots on a diagonal. He gets out and I mentioned to him 'nice car' to which he just ignores me. I left it at that.
PS: as we were leaving I overheard his friend tease him about eating the apple pie in the car.
Also, I noticed the car failed to start on the first turn of the ignition. Some of you vintage folks may know of other individuals and can share some redeeming anecdotes of exotic-car owners.

I pulled up next to a brand new Porsche Carrera the other day. I nodded but he only stared forward. When the light turned green I tucked in behind him. He flicked his cigar ashes over the car so that they would hit my windshield.

The funny thing is most real car enthusiasts don't act like that.

Read your post elsewhere...why do some people have more money than decency? A philosophical question I guess that applies across the board - maybe 'rich' people are just easier targets?? Would a S2K person do the same w/ an old TR7 (saw one today)? I hope no one in our community has an attitude...

I've met or run across several S2000 owners / drivers with that attitude. Even when driving the S2000 I've had other owners refuse to speak to me when I've said hello or nice car. Some people are just like that. It's their problem not mine.

Since I can't say anything to those 'others', let me just say humbly that we are fortunate to have our 'S' - whatever life circumstances...be grateful and gracious; never count your money in front of the poor.

It's all about the person behind the wheel...

My last encounter with a Ferrari was exactly the opposite. As I was almost home, driving about 35mph through my little country village I see this beautiful red car coming towards me. As soon as it got closer I realized it was a Ferrari 550 Maranello, and trust me, a car like that is way out of place in my village. Well all of a sudden his lights flash and as we pass each other the Ferrari driver gives me the thumbs up. I felt like My Spa was elevated to exotic car status that day. :p

You know it really doesn't take much. A flash of the lights, a thumbs up, a "V" and everyone feels good. You have to wonder why some people just don't get it. Why they feel like they have something to prove.

I gave a "thumbs up" as I passed a 356 Cabriolet going the other way last week... got a smile and a nod in return. You have to respect someone who drives an old sports car: anybody with a checkbook can drive a new one, but an old one requires a certain level of commitment.

I do a lot of hiking. Even in the great, grand woods where the pace has slowed to a walk, the air is clean and fresh, and the gentle sunlight filters through the leaves, the sourpuss still lurks.

Oh! That's real wisdom! Observations like this deserve to be engraved in stone. I like it!!

Anyone, Ferrari owner or not, who ignores a friendly compliment is a genuine boor, reminding me of what they used to call the Nazis --"...Neanderthals in airplanes....".

Great post. I agree. It doesn't take much to own, at least for awhile, a new car of any kind. S2000, Porsche, Viper, BMW Etc. It's just a car. As a community, it would be great if we gave a smile and thumbs up to fellow top down drivers, regardless of their choice.
I saw this guy the other day in Capitola. Driving a torch red Viper. He gets out and he's all black leather and zippers. Black boots to black leather jacket. Must of had 30 zippers. Long hair slicked back and black sunglasses. His pants were so stiff he couldn't walk. Walked around the village with an equally plastic babe. Actually, she wasn't bad!!!!!!! Now that I think of it, the guy sort of looked like a young Elvis. Hey! Elvis sighting in Capitola!!!!!!!!!!!!

Extremely wise words!!!
We have a casual outdoor car show in my area every Wednesday. Upstate has gotten together there as a group of S2000s many times this summer. The last time I was there, so was this car.

1972 Ferrari 365 GT, one of 500 units made
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I sort of caught up to this guy on the way home. We were in a 45mph-speed zone on a 4-lane highway. I pulled up next to him, downshifted, gave him a VTEC, got in front of him, pulled over into his lane. He then moves out to pass me, gets up to my door, and tromps on the wonderful V12. As he goes past me, he slows down and drops into the lane in front of me. We must have repeated this about 6 times, never really going more than maybe 5 mph over the speed limit. When we both pulled up to the inevitable red light we were both laughing and smiling and giving each other compliments. The guy must have been in his late 60s, it was a great night. A the light turned green we both gently pulled away from the light and went in separate directions.

Although Dex9 ran into an ass, there are lots of great Ferrari drives out there...

I love playing around with anyone who wants to play. I'm not talking about racing or anything of the sort, but like what HHH did with that 365 GT. I play with the young Whipper Snappers with Civics and the like. Just a bit of fun on the drive.

What's up with the Fram filters on that GT :confused:. I use them all the time. It seems most here, dislike them. hummm, Fram filters on a rare '72 Ferrari. That

I once read a test of OEM and aftermarket oil filters and Fram was rated the best of the bunch. Although I've gotten into the habit of buying Honda (and Toyota for the other car) filters in bulk via mail order, I've never had qualms about using Fram filters.

Thanks. People look at my antique sports car projects and usually conclude that I should be committed. It sounds better when you say it.

Hey, Legal Bill, don't get too excited, commitment and committed are only a few letters off... :stick:

:p :D :p

Well put man, well put. Clearly there was no Fast N Furious BS taking place, but we were both enjoying the sounds and sights of the other car. :bigsmile: You should have seen the grin on that guy's face. I know I made his week!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PWRMKR
What's up with the Fram filters on that GT :confused:. I use them all the time. It seems most here, dislike them. hummm, Fram filters on a rare '72 Ferrari. That

Right in my own neighborhood, I daily see two automotive projects-in-waiting.

There's an orange '69 Porsche 912 that needs a valve job and looks to have run some hard miles; the guy wants $2,000 but his friend says at this point, he'll take whatever he can get. Meanwhile, a few streets over there's a Triumph Spitfire with four flat tires parked in somebody's driveway. It hasn't moved for years.

They both should go to good homes. It's sad to see them there, wasting away.

Bill,

Before I bought the S2000 I spent some time researching ebay, etc. looking for an XK-E (dream car of my youth) or a 356 Cabriolet(I used to be pretty good at working on the air-cooled VW's and figured a lot of the skills would transfer), but I didn't have the guts to take the risk. There was just too much chance of a novice making a $25-30,000 mistake. So I bought the S2000 and am happy as can be with it. However, whenever I see an old classic on the road, I wonder about the "road not taken"...

Ah! the road not taken! I think about it too, every time I happen onto some wonderful old marvel like an XKE or AH3000. But hardly knowing one end of a wrench (spanner?) from another, it'd be like owning a landmine, I'm afraid.

Helios-- Car & Driver had an article on just this sort of thing a few months back, written by a mailman about the dead cars he sees on his route, waiting to be brought back to life.

About 15 years ago I was driving a 1986 Alfa Romeo Spider and saw an approaching exotic, it was a Lamborghini Countach, bright yellow, an arm extended out the drivers side window and waved enthusiastically at me as he passed. Must have been an Italian thing?

O.K. You guys made me do it. All this talk about old cars to be restored. If I had more money or if my folks didn't sell their house in Brooklyn, I'd still have it. This is about 1981 https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...e392265cdb.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...083e64ba19.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...1938119850.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...ac06f28023.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...0d513069e9.jpg

I get annoyed after waving and getting snubbed but then when I least expect it I will get an enthusiastic wave and that will return my faith in humanity! Today I was cruising on I-91 and despite the cold I had the top down and a suburban passed me and the passenger waved enthusiastically to me which brought a smile to my face. Later in the day on a two lane road three boys in a pickup were accelerating on/off in front of me and waving me on as they wanted to hear the S's engine. We had a slow car in front of us so we didn't go very fast, we just hung back and then accelerated in brief bursts, they got a kick out of it as did I.
As far as Ferrari's and roads not taken I have ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS wanted a 308 and I had planned on buying one but when the time came that I could afford a 30k dollar car I did some research and felt that I wasn't financially ready to handle the upkeep/maintenance........yet! As for the oil filters while you do see a lot of F-cars with fram filters most ferrari guys recommend Baldwin filters.

Ahhh. "The Road Not Taken". My joints are feeling the pain already. :LOL:
Recently my son took over my '68 Bug. My road not taken on that car has yielded 50,000 miles of Roads Taken. He asked me to help him with the brakes just this morning. We adjusted all four drums, replaced the fuel filter and completed some other tasks to keep er on the road.
I'd rather play leap frog with the S, then feel the cold cement floor suck the heat out of me.

V

I had an incident where a gentlemen came over to me as I was getting out of my S and said nice car, followed by I'm buying a BMW Z4. I told him, I had looked at the BMW and decided that I rather have performance, dependability, and lower cost of ownership than pay for a "brand." Branding is the reason many people purchase a certain make, they never look at value, they only look at "bragging rights."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Glenn2
I had an incident where a gentlemen came over to me as I was getting out of my S and said nice car, followed by I'm buying a BMW Z4.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedY2KS2k

Getting back to Ferraris and exotics in general --
I wonder how it feels to drive a car like this? I imagine I might get a bit paranoid from time to time, like I had a bulls-eye painted on the car. I see the effect the S2000 has on some other drivers and can only imagine what it must be like in a Ferrari.
A few weekends ago, one of these cars did everything it could to avoid pulling alongside me on the freeway. The driver probably thought I wanted to race, when I just wanted to admire it.
Of course, if you didn't want to be noticed, you wouldn't have a Ferrari in the first place, but it probably gets old after awhile.
I did get a return wave from a yellow 355 once, so I guess it all depends on the drivers and their mood at the moment.

it gets old.... you see it once a year and get upset when they do not acknowledge your admiration, they get hoots and hollers at every light, on the road, in the parking lots....

i had one guy at the dragon pull up next to me and say "Dude! you're driving a Ferrari!" what kind of answer am i supposed to give?

Yes, i am
Oh SHIT!!! this isn't my car.....
No, its a honda s2000 with a body kit.

it is like the whole celebrity photo thing. at an appearance, interview, award show, etc. photographers are parts of the deal, when they are eating or taking their kids to school, they want to be left alone. when i am driving, i want to drive, not carry on a conversation with all the people pulling up next to me.

granted, returning a thumbs up does not take much effort, but can you all honestly tell me that everyone who drives by you while you are in the s2k and them in a pinto, vw bug, hyundai, etc gets a wave back from you?

Helios.... come to fall colors and win the raffle and you will know what it is like to drive one.

keith

:rofl: Oh how much I would like to be burdened with the problems of driving a Ferrari...

Common courtesy demands an acknowledgement of a genuine compliment; snubbing is boorish. There is a difference between drooling on your hood and recognizing your taste in automobiles. The Hollywood glitterati grow tired of the praise of us unwashed masses, too, but even Ferraris drive on PUBLIC roads.

hey professor

everyone who says hello to you walking down the street, you reply to with a kind, fine, how are you.

everyone you pass on the sidewalk in new york city that is wearing the same pants as you are, you shout out to them "Nice Pants!!" and they smile and give you a thumbs up....

every telemarketer that calls you makes a sale.

every homeless person on the street with his hand out receives a nice shiny coin from you because you are a commonly courteous person.....

if any of these are untrue for you, do not throw stones and call me boorish.

just because you recognize my taste in automobiles, does not warrant my being pulled into a conversation with you on the street or at the market, or an exchange of gestures as we travel in opposite directions at a speed of 120 mph and i am not concentrating on looking into the passenger compartment of your car to see if i have impressed you with my bright shiny car.

keith

Keith, I won't be there this weekend, but will live vicariously through the photos.
Whoever wins that raffle will be talking about it for years! That's a good gesture on your part.
Have fun at FC!

Hey KAM, all true, except for the telemarketer, who is not approaching me in PUBLIC. And the bum never gets a nice, shiny coin, because while I may be polite, I'm not stupid.

Otherwise, nice try, but I prefer acknowledging sincere gestures.

Maybe the stereotype of this thread is true?

Ouch...

sure, it is true....

had to beg people to take a ride in the car at the dragon because they all thought i was kidding....

had raul raffle for winner to drive it themself down the road, doing the same at fall colors, take passengers with me at track, when i am at events, more than willing to talk to people about it, etc...

public, private, it is all the same thing. should i be more friendly to you if you wave at me on the street in passing, or because you took the time to come to my door?

and as for the poor bum, i guess you are not so rude as to ignore him outright when he asks for change to buy some coffee, you just lie to him and say you have no change, because you know for a fact that he is gonna use it for wine, not coffee... i guess if we want to toss monikers about, hypocrite comes to mind.

keith

I met Keith at the dragon and I can vouch for his friendliness.
Let me even take a picture in his car :)

I was driving with my wife on the highway and saw a nicely restored, BRIGHT green, late 70s 911. The guy pulled up next to me and gave a friendly nod. I have not had that many negative experiences from other cars but I have passed by tons of other S2000 drivers who have not waved, nodded or in any other way even acknowleged I was there.

In an effort to diffuse Kam and Prof's above exchange, consider this resolution:

We, as a group, raise the prestige, value and mystique of our cars by returning all waves and salutes with the finger. Discuss.

that would be the index finger for "we are number 1" not the middle one, right????

keith

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KAMcDonald
that would be the index finger for "we are number 1"

I elect to refrain from any acknowledgement.

OK, it's not a TR7, but does a TR6 count?

Met this old guy (yea, I'm calling him old) inside the gas station when he commented about how nice my S2000 looked. Having seen the immaculate TR6 at the pump next to me, I said "I assume you're driving that georgeous TR6?" I think he grew 2 inches with that comment.

We went outside and compared cars, mine being much newer, lower, wider, faster; his being older and much cleaner. I then asked him if I could take this picture, just for fun.

The whole exchange took all of 90 seconds, but here I am, over a year later, and I still remember it. And him, and his perfect TR6.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...7e95606bd9.jpg

Let me preface my 2 cents with this... I'm not technically "vintage" at 31 although my thought processes seem to coincide much better here than elsewhere on this board. I look even younger. I'm dark skinned, keep a shaved head and a goatee and never, and I mean never, drive with the top up. I'm half Hawaiian (hence my handle on this board) and have a propensity for bright Aloha shirts (usually Reyn Spooner).

I led with that because I'm surprised that given how I usually look and dress, my experiences are vastly different from many of yours.

I frequently have great exchanges with exotic car owners. I've met quite a few Porsche, Ferrari and even Lambo guys who are just genuine car enthusiasts and know a ton about our little car and admire it for doing so much with so little.

One of my favorite recent drives was with a group that calls themselves the Ferrari Drivers Club (they're motto is they drive and they drive often). They invited me to take a group drive N or Los Angeles with them. It was my Honda, an NSX, a Z06, a few Vipers, and a gaggle of F cars. Most of the Ferrari's were 355's and 348's but there were some older and newer cars mixed in. With one exception, they were all awesome guys and gals. I had a blast and have been subsequently invited to a number of other driving events (including a F car only track day where I was invited to sit shotgun in a 348 challenge car).

I think you're always going to run into knuckleheads but I find there's something very satisfying about meeting an enthusiast who routinely exercises his/her dream car and still keeps his/her head down to earth enough to spend a few minutes with a punk kid like me to talk story or let me sit in or ride in their car.

Here's to car enthusiasts of any make.
:thumbup: :thumbup:

Perhaps he had his own reasons for going with the BMW.

Not sure about the brand bit, but my BMW's have been better performing, had a lower cost of ownership and have been much more reliable than my s2000 ....

Assumptions are so often wrong.

P.S. Many folks don't wave. I do not wave at anything regardless of what I am driving, nor do I enjoy talking to folks at stop lights.

Now I will go out of my way to be cordial and answer questions when the car is stopped, but when in motion I am driving.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Da Hapa

you elect to refrain and you are cool with that, even though this is a conversation thread you were participating in

i, and others, while driving elect to refrain from acknowledging other compliments, and we are boorish...

i guess that means nuff said on the topic....

keith

I guess I should weigh in since I started this - acknowledging another enthusiast's vehicle and/or responding to others who find our 'S' notable might be more a function of the enthusiast; and any given situation. Passing on the highway is a split second decision to respond, waiting for gas or passing in a lot walking is another. Context seems to make a difference - who knows, maybe this person I met was in a middle of a fight and was going to McD's reluctantly and was too self absorbed. (BTW, it was a siver Spyder, very nice). Similarly, at any given moment I might not be as gracious as I would normally be....lost in thought or bliss or....the TR7 I mentioned was weaving by (white wedge, top down) and passed on the right in a hurry - there was no time for me to 'wave' or whatever, and he seemed in a hurry and did likewise.
Still, I liked to think given the opportunity there should be some sort of solidarity and graciousness between enthusiasts of any marque and vehicle - after all, the majority of people driving (around NY at least) have little regard for driving or cars.

When I was in Rio not too long ago I stepped out of my hotel one evening to take a walk. In one corner I saw a bunch of people, some were sitting, some were standing and they were all singing and some of them had musical instruments. I stopped to enjoy the music and they were all smiling and they invited me to join them. The spontaneity of it was really cool.
BTW, it is very common in Rio for neighbors to gather up in the evenings, drink beer, sing or just chat.

I just noticed this thread is about a Ferrari encounter. Its funny how threads wonder. :)
Anyway, I think its about how people interact and in this I wasn't off with my post. ;)

dex9,

i agree with you about the location thing.... if i am sitting there pumping gas and someone asks a question or wants to look, no problem. driving down the road in same direction, maybe, because it is not so much a distraction and easier to notice. opposite directions at speed, not so much. kids waving furiously, sure, smile and wave back. some idiot with a fart can on the back of a rust bucket at a stop light revving furiously, no, completely ignore him....

keith

It takes so little to be cordial. A wave, peace sign, thumbs up Etc. I haven't always initiated an acknowledgment of another's car but I think I will in the future. I'm not going to go off the road to do so but I will make an effort. Ask not what others can do for you but what you can do for others. Hey! Did JFK drive an S2000? I bet he would if they had been around in his time. Might want to keep that top up when driving through Dallas though. Slapping myself. That was in poor taste.

KAM: I guess people gauking and getting too close to your car would be annoying. That even happens in the S2000. I don't mind them looking but I hate it when they get up on your tail to see what kind of car it is. You and the Professor are right though. Returning a wave or acknowledgement doesn't take much effort and actually signifies what kind of human being you are. It's a community thang! I know I'm going to try harder.
When I'm asked for spare change, I almost always say no and in return ask them if they have some because "we could all use a little change."

By the way. Has everyone checked out the review thread on edmunds.com about our cars? You can go in and write a review which rates out cars from 1-10. I think it's in the 9s now. 9.6? Lets try to make it a perfect 10. That may influence the value of our cars in a positive way.

Not a big fan of the TRs since after the 4. The 4 was kind of the breakaway car, the 2s and 3s were classic and I'd do a lot to get my paws on one. That or an old Austin Healey.

Quick anecdote on the 3... Once going down route 6 through Seekonk or such, and I see this gorgeous, TR3. I pull up alongside it. Driver is probably early 50s. I give him the thumbs up, and he gives the nod.

Then he gives the ultimate trick which you could do in the old TRs and Sunbeams... pops a cigarette in his mouth and pulls out a match. These cars are SO small, you can reach back, and put the match against the rear tire. Lights the match on the tire and uses it to light his cigarette. Absolutely freakin' classic. I smiled, waved, and took off.

----- -----

Sometimes you have to give props to the non-sports cars though. Example? '57 Oldsmobile wagon. Engine north of 7 liters. Ran nylon tires stock. If you power braked the car, you'd spin the nylons, actually setting them abalaze. If you did it right you'd take off and they'd go out.

Best part? Where you did your uber-burnout, you actually left HOLES in the asphalt. This is with the car 100% stock, no mods.

That would be the J2 option, I think. My parents bought one in 57 (they had me helping them "shop"). That V8 had three deuces (2bbl carbs) and would never get any traction for a drag start, but it'd get sideways easily.

I have been following this thread for a while and have evidence to the contrary for the 'exotic car owner stereotype'.

The folks in my building / garage have (in no particular order) Ferrari 456 GT / Ferrari 360 Spider / 911 Turbo / CLK500 / BoxsterS / Z06 / Z05 / M3 / M5 / E5 AMG... these all park next to my S AND my Olds Sedan POS... everyone is cool and respects each car for what it is. Even the POS...

To "the road not taken" I had a 64 356C Cab and it was a wonderful ride for over 30,000 miles until I drive it up the bumper of a DeSoto.

Yes you could have handled the upkeep as long as you knew someone named Dieter or Fritz that believed it was just a tractor and not an exotic sports car.

I am mechanically challenged but not knowing any better I once changed the fan without removing the engine ( hours of grunting and swearing) which I later learned was impossible.

My S2000 was purchased to try and recreate the good old days in the 356. What a pleasant surprise. The S2000 is an even more enjoyable automobile and without the quirks ( will it start today?, Should I park on a hill?, will the lights work if it rains?) Don't get me wrong, the Porsche was wonderful and the gearshift was smooth as butter but the S2000 is a far more enjoyable drive and It has power to spare. I haven't taken it over 120MPH and probable won't unless I go to a track.

Enjoy.

Since this thread veered onto the topic of Ferrari owners' attitudes, it made me think of that video of the Ferrari leaving the parking garage and a great looking woman walks by, etc.

Does anyone remember it, or know where to find it.

It's about a 10 or 15 second mpg, I think. Hilarious (ok, warning to KAMcDonald -- you'd have to be good sport watching it, but I suspect you already know re stereotypes thoroughly!).

Having owned numerous old cars and worked on many 356s both road and racing as well as a couple of 911s I can speak from both sides of the fence. As a friend of mine says a lot of Porsche owners wear their cars on their sleeves whereas most vintage brit owners are committed (or should be !!) to their cars and enjoy the thrill of not knowing if it will start or keep going. I have to say that neither of my current British cars have ever stranded me, inconvience yes but no stuck by the side of the road issues.

A few years ago MG owners did not acknowlwdge Triumph owners nor did Mini owners recognize Hillman Imps etc. It extended to bikes as well no Rice rocket owner would acknowledge a Harley or vice versa.

The way I see it if you enjoy your vehicle and wave/flash your lights etc. to someone and they don't return the favor so what you will feel good

Then there's KAMcDonald, who is very generous with his 360 Modena and a great guy. Remember, he offered a drive as a FC prize and took several us for 140 mph spins on the I-81 during the autox.:) My life's dream was fulfilled on Sunday.:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rick Hesel
Then there's KAMcDonald, who is very generous with his 360 Modena and a great guy. Remember, he offered a drive as a FC prize and took several us for 140 mph spins on the I-81 during the autox.:)

I have several observations after surfing through this forum. I wish that I had made notes along the way to respond specifically to some of the comments that were made.

First, and foremost I will lead off with the comment that just because one can afford the "ultimate driving machine" it does not make one the "ultimate driver"! Heck, I work with a yuppie type female that has a BMW 328, she did not even know if it had a four or six cylinder engine. We were recently at a government facility as part of our work which required the MP's to do a vehicle security check. When one of the MP's asked her to pop open her hood and trunk (for inspection) I had to show her where her hood latch was. She has been driving this car since 1997! I now refer to her on this site as "clueless in Arlington".

BTW, she is the same person that does not consider race drivers as atheletes!:(

Just because one can afford it, does not mean that one deserves to have it!

Regarding the wave or light flash issue, I went through a simular point in time back when I was riding motorcycles. Back in the early 70's every one on a motorcycle waved. Then the first fuel shortage came along and an influx of new riders attracted by the fuel economy that were newbies and did not have a clue. Then at some point Harley riders would not wave to people on "rice burners". Now that upscale baby boomers have discovered Harley's they don't wave to others at all. I believe that we may be experiencing the same thing with other S2K owners that are buying up the 2000 and 2001's that are for sale or coming off of a lease and they are buying them because they are "cute" but don't have a clue that they are special. I believe that quite a few people that buy S2K's have NO CLUE as to what they are buying. Over the last few years when I was "lusting" after one I would check web sites like www.cars.com and www.carmax.com, etc and was always amazed by how many were for sale with under 5,000 miles on them.

The size of one's heart and integrity has never been measured by the size of one's wallet or bank account. How many co-workers do you know that do not have the common courtesy to say "good morning" to the receptionist at your office, or to the janitor in the building in which you work?
:rolleyes:

Sorry to be so late with this..........
An exception for Ferrari owners. Next time, move your car to be parallel to his on his driver's side and close enuf that he can't get in. Then get out of your car and stand a distance from him just so you can see the proceedings. but out of conversation range.

Would I do this? Maybe.....

Gerry
Milton, FL

That's a bit too confrontational for me; but I understand your sentiment.