US Auto Sales fall again
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From: Mish-she-gan
Our domestic automobile industry is on the verge of total collapse. Detroit is responsible for a great deal of their predicament - poor quality, short term management, failure to plan for high gas, giving in to unions, etc. But I also recall when Japanese vehicles started out with a $3,000 cost advantage before they even hit our shores and the amount grew every passing year. Before you put to much blame on the companies and unions don
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From: Randolph, NJ
[QUOTE=boltonblue,Nov 4 2008, 04:56 PM] as a design engineer my answer would be no.
you assuming that an auto com0pany only screws cars together.
your ignoring all of the front end work that goes on for years before a car hits the showroom.
While I won't disagree with the self inflicted problems that Detroit has with UAW and associated benefits.
I have a huge issue with the decisions that they have been making over on the design side.
you assuming that an auto com0pany only screws cars together.
your ignoring all of the front end work that goes on for years before a car hits the showroom.
While I won't disagree with the self inflicted problems that Detroit has with UAW and associated benefits.
I have a huge issue with the decisions that they have been making over on the design side.
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From: Randolph, NJ
[QUOTE=dlq04,Nov 4 2008, 05:55 PM] Our domestic automobile industry is on the verge of total collapse. Detroit is responsible for a great deal of their predicament - poor quality, short term management, failure to plan for high gas, giving in to unions, etc. But I also recall when Japanese vehicles started out with a $3,000 cost advantage before they even hit our shores and the amount grew every passing year. Before you put to much blame on the companies and unions don
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From: Gleening the apex
Originally Posted by ralper,Nov 4 2008, 03:54 PM
Do you agree?
My wife works on the assembly line @ MAP (Marysville Auto Plant)and they have cut out all OT until December
American Honda year to date sales are down 3.6% 1,266,447 to 1,308,319.
What Honda has done is shift production from plants that were producing slow sellers (Ridgeline,Odyssey) they will now get the V6 Accords
MAP will now produce only 4 cyl Accords and the RDX and TL's also there will no longer be any imported Accords from Japan. This way everyone stays busy and there are no layoffs
If Ridgelines and Odyssey sales take off agin in the Spring they'll just add another shift
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From: bolton
I did some interesting research into the plant that Mercedes Benz opened in Alabama to build the ML320.
The area became saturated with support entities doing manufacturing for axles and drive shafts and switches and all of the associated bits and pieces.
They struggled mightily to get their quality right. I know since I own one of the first year models. I did have some conversations with engineers within the plant as they tried to use Chrysler quality models.
but from what I can tell they finally got it sorted out.
We have to remember that quality comes from understanding the customer requirements very early in the design cycle. The closer you have aligned to your aim at the start the better the customer will be satisfied.
The area became saturated with support entities doing manufacturing for axles and drive shafts and switches and all of the associated bits and pieces.
They struggled mightily to get their quality right. I know since I own one of the first year models. I did have some conversations with engineers within the plant as they tried to use Chrysler quality models.
but from what I can tell they finally got it sorted out.
We have to remember that quality comes from understanding the customer requirements very early in the design cycle. The closer you have aligned to your aim at the start the better the customer will be satisfied.
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From: Marblehead
I think for Detroit to survive they will have to get smaller, leaner, and focus on new products. They still have half the market and a lot of people who want to buy American labels. The UAW has already bent a lot and will have to bend even more to make it work. But, we really do need those jobs, not just the plush union jobs but also the greater number of jobs at stake with the parts suppliers, the steel and materials suppliers, the dealers and resale side, and the money making service side. We're talking a lot of jobs here, and for the greater good, the industry is worth saving. Competition is good. I hope nobody thinks the Toyota and Honda workers don't have sweet jobs with good benefits. Who uses less US made parts than Ford? I vote for Lainey's "have not been around as long," regarding workers and benefits and pensions.
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This concerns me too, but not to the point that I'd subsidize the "American" auto industry enough to buy one.
I'd buy one of the American Hondas or Toyotas tho.
What is American anymore? The greater good as some have put it is being served by these other countries when they place their plants here, use our workers, buy our parts and sell to us. We're buying American, it just has a different name than we are used to when we think American.
I agree whole heartedly with zzziippyy when he said "
shout.gif EXACTLY!!!!!!!! When you overpay for labor and compensation there is only one way to offset that and it is charging more for your substandard product. Now the time has come to pay the piper and he wont be piping much longer! The car buying public has voted with there wallets and the outcome is seen in the sales figures.
Ask yourself what is the union going to do for you now? "
I've recently had to drive a Chrysler, Saturn and Cheby for 2 weeks. They were absolute obominations when compared to my Honda. The quality was horrid and yet the price tags said they should be top quality. Unfortunately they weren't.
Gas mileage was horrible too. So many of the American models tout their gas mileage but it's a fake. They use a high top gear to make it look good in tests, but on the streets where you aren't in top gear much they absolutely guzzle the gas.
I'd buy one of the American Hondas or Toyotas tho.
What is American anymore? The greater good as some have put it is being served by these other countries when they place their plants here, use our workers, buy our parts and sell to us. We're buying American, it just has a different name than we are used to when we think American.
I agree whole heartedly with zzziippyy when he said "
shout.gif EXACTLY!!!!!!!! When you overpay for labor and compensation there is only one way to offset that and it is charging more for your substandard product. Now the time has come to pay the piper and he wont be piping much longer! The car buying public has voted with there wallets and the outcome is seen in the sales figures.
Ask yourself what is the union going to do for you now? "
I've recently had to drive a Chrysler, Saturn and Cheby for 2 weeks. They were absolute obominations when compared to my Honda. The quality was horrid and yet the price tags said they should be top quality. Unfortunately they weren't.
Gas mileage was horrible too. So many of the American models tout their gas mileage but it's a fake. They use a high top gear to make it look good in tests, but on the streets where you aren't in top gear much they absolutely guzzle the gas.
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From: Canton, MA
Originally Posted by ralper,Nov 4 2008, 06:06 PM
Actually I'm not ignoring the front end development at all. The fact is companies like Honda and Toyota have opened design studios and engineering facilites in the US and GM and Ford are doing a great deal of their design and engineering off shore. Honda and Toyota use imported parts but so do Ford and GM.
My point isn't even that Honda and Toyota could absorb all of GM and Fords workers. In the short run they probably can't. Certainly no more than any other industry has been able to absorb the workers displaced by foreign competition in the short run. My point was that the American economy probably benefits as much by the purchase of a Honda or Toyota produced in America as it benefits from a GM or Ford produced in America.
As for Ford and GM being at a major disadvantage because of the unions, they've been hiding behind that excuse for a very long time and they've worn it out. It isn't valid now and it probably never was.
The plain simple truth is that Honda and Toyota have given the market what the market wants to buy while GM and Ford have largely ignored the demands of the market. When the market wanted big SUVs the American companies had no trouble producing, selling and making a profit with them, unions notwithstanding. The problem is the shortsighedness of management and their inability to understand the marketplace and adapt to its changing demands.
Bill, you said it yourself. You'd love to buy and American vehicle if only you could find one that you wanted. That, in a nutshell is the problem. All you ever have to do is give the market what it wants to buy, and you'll prosper. Toyota and Honda seem to know how to do it, GM and Ford don't.
Do General Motors and Ford deserve to survive? In my opinion absolutely not. Will it be painful for America if they don't? In the short run, probably, in the long run, maybe not.
My point isn't even that Honda and Toyota could absorb all of GM and Fords workers. In the short run they probably can't. Certainly no more than any other industry has been able to absorb the workers displaced by foreign competition in the short run. My point was that the American economy probably benefits as much by the purchase of a Honda or Toyota produced in America as it benefits from a GM or Ford produced in America.
As for Ford and GM being at a major disadvantage because of the unions, they've been hiding behind that excuse for a very long time and they've worn it out. It isn't valid now and it probably never was.
The plain simple truth is that Honda and Toyota have given the market what the market wants to buy while GM and Ford have largely ignored the demands of the market. When the market wanted big SUVs the American companies had no trouble producing, selling and making a profit with them, unions notwithstanding. The problem is the shortsighedness of management and their inability to understand the marketplace and adapt to its changing demands.
Bill, you said it yourself. You'd love to buy and American vehicle if only you could find one that you wanted. That, in a nutshell is the problem. All you ever have to do is give the market what it wants to buy, and you'll prosper. Toyota and Honda seem to know how to do it, GM and Ford don't.
Do General Motors and Ford deserve to survive? In my opinion absolutely not. Will it be painful for America if they don't? In the short run, probably, in the long run, maybe not.
Your view also fails to assess the very real risk behind the loss of the US auto industry. The failure of US auto manufacturing places this country at the whim of foreign corporations and governments. There is nothing to stop Honda, Toyota or BMW from deciding that plants in South America and other third world countries can replace those in the US. This is just a matter of good business for the foreign companies. Make the product where the costs are lowest. Then the jobs and the profits can both flow out of the US. Why wouldn't they do that?
The risk is too great, and there is not even any upside to this strategy. What do we gain by letting our manufacturing base fail? The so called white collar services/managment /financing economy that was supposed to replace manufacturing has failed. A generation of baby boomers and their kids went to college so they could all cook up credit default swaps. We would have been better served learning how to weld.
US automakers need a major revamping. A business plan based on high profit SUVs has left them without product in the current market. Due to a dramatic surge in gas prices and a collapse of the credit system a slowly declining SUV market simply collapsed in a matter of months; long before new products were ready for market. Time and money is needed to revamp. If people are willing to accept non-union US auto factories, then the investment in these companies will pay off in the near future. If unions are to continue, then more time and money will be needed.
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From: Delaware, OH
The American car maker may well not deserve to survive. The big banks and investment banks that bloated themselves on junk bonds definitely don't deserve to survive. But the welfare state stepped in to bail their butts out. Homeowners who bought housese they cannot afford don't deserve to keep them, but the welfare state will step in and bail them out, too. Why not Ford, GM, and Chrysler?