Upgrading Suspension & Handling Parts with square setup
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Joined: Nov 2009
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Upgrading Suspension & Handling Parts with square setup
I've got a set of new wheels and tires in the garage and am trying to decide on what suspension and handling modifications I should purchase.
Background:
- I'll be using my car for 90% street, 10% track. I do 2000-3000 miles per year. I'd like to be able to soften the suspension so it's smooth for the road, and then wind it up for track use when I need to
- Wheels and tires are Work Emotion CR Kai, 17 x 9.0 +38 with sticky 255 40 R17 NT05 tires.
- My fenders will be rolled, rear bumper tab relocated, and the car will be lowered between 1.25 to 2 inches, and some negative camber will be applied
- Coilovers I am considering: So far, I have quotes on H&R Street Performance ($1150), Bilstein PSS9 ($1350), KW V3 ($1950), Eibach MultiPro R2 ($2250), and finally, Ohlins DFV ($3000)
My questions:
1) Given that I am going with a square setup, I am guessing that I will have more grip at the front, and my car may be more prone to oversteer. (true or false?)
2) If true, can I correct or neutralize the oversteer through the installation of swaybars? If not, what should I do? One option I am considering is installing EIbach Adjustable swaybars ($318) and setting the front to hard, rear to soft.
3) Are replacement roll center adjusters essential? Given that this will cost an additional $500+ in parts alone (example: Hardrace), should I wait for stock roll center adjusters to wear out, or just replace them now and be done with it?
4) Similar to above, is driveshaft spacers essential? Lowering the car obviously impacts it's roll center, and I want to avoid having other parts of the suspension wearing more quickly or damaging anything, and if I can avoid it, I'd like to.
5) the H&R, Bilstein and KWs do NOT come with upper mounts (sometimes called pillow balls). Cusco replacements will cost $500+, and OEM including all new rubber will cost $200+. Do most of you re-use old ones (mine will be 10+ years old given I have a 2001 year car). Should I buy new OEM, or Cusco, or just go with suspension that comes with it and save the headache?
6) Finally, what suspension setup would you suggest I look at. I'm not looking at selling this car for a while, and don't really want to try 3 sets before settling on a setup. Right now, KWV3s have my attention the most because of the large volume of positive feedback I am seeing. But the Multi Pro R2s also look interesting, and have top mounts and remote reservoirs, for $270 more)
Yes, there's a lot of questions (Sorry about that). If you can help me make an informed decision, and hopefully spend money once and do it right, I'd be grateful.
Thank you.
Background:
- I'll be using my car for 90% street, 10% track. I do 2000-3000 miles per year. I'd like to be able to soften the suspension so it's smooth for the road, and then wind it up for track use when I need to
- Wheels and tires are Work Emotion CR Kai, 17 x 9.0 +38 with sticky 255 40 R17 NT05 tires.
- My fenders will be rolled, rear bumper tab relocated, and the car will be lowered between 1.25 to 2 inches, and some negative camber will be applied
- Coilovers I am considering: So far, I have quotes on H&R Street Performance ($1150), Bilstein PSS9 ($1350), KW V3 ($1950), Eibach MultiPro R2 ($2250), and finally, Ohlins DFV ($3000)
My questions:
1) Given that I am going with a square setup, I am guessing that I will have more grip at the front, and my car may be more prone to oversteer. (true or false?)
2) If true, can I correct or neutralize the oversteer through the installation of swaybars? If not, what should I do? One option I am considering is installing EIbach Adjustable swaybars ($318) and setting the front to hard, rear to soft.
3) Are replacement roll center adjusters essential? Given that this will cost an additional $500+ in parts alone (example: Hardrace), should I wait for stock roll center adjusters to wear out, or just replace them now and be done with it?
4) Similar to above, is driveshaft spacers essential? Lowering the car obviously impacts it's roll center, and I want to avoid having other parts of the suspension wearing more quickly or damaging anything, and if I can avoid it, I'd like to.
5) the H&R, Bilstein and KWs do NOT come with upper mounts (sometimes called pillow balls). Cusco replacements will cost $500+, and OEM including all new rubber will cost $200+. Do most of you re-use old ones (mine will be 10+ years old given I have a 2001 year car). Should I buy new OEM, or Cusco, or just go with suspension that comes with it and save the headache?
6) Finally, what suspension setup would you suggest I look at. I'm not looking at selling this car for a while, and don't really want to try 3 sets before settling on a setup. Right now, KWV3s have my attention the most because of the large volume of positive feedback I am seeing. But the Multi Pro R2s also look interesting, and have top mounts and remote reservoirs, for $270 more)
Yes, there's a lot of questions (Sorry about that). If you can help me make an informed decision, and hopefully spend money once and do it right, I'd be grateful.
Thank you.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,037
Likes: 26
From: SoCal
1. Correct, a square setup has wider front tires so you will have more oversteer than staggered.
2. You can always tune with sway bars. In general you will need a stiffer front bar to reduce the oversteer on a square setup. The stock rear bar should be fine. Some people run no rear bar to gain rear traction.
3. Dunno.
4. Debatable, some people say anything lowered more than an inch needs driveshaft spacers.
5. Our stock suspension doesn't use pillow balls at the upper front. It just uses a simple steel upper hat with a rubber washer. They're about $80 for the set. If you have the upper hats already just replace the rubber washer. The steel upper hat will never wear out.
6. Up to you. Look at spring rates and determine how stiff you want to go. The track needs stiff, a street setup gets less and less comfortable the stiffer you get. A square setup generally needs more stiffness to keep you from rubbing, and your front sway bar is going to be stiff, making the ride quality less compliant.
PSS9 is a comfortable street system, but a little soft for serious tracking. KWV3 is stiffer and more track oriented but not as comfortable on the street. If you're going 90% street I don't see a lot of benefit with Ohlins etc unless money isn't an issue.
2. You can always tune with sway bars. In general you will need a stiffer front bar to reduce the oversteer on a square setup. The stock rear bar should be fine. Some people run no rear bar to gain rear traction.
3. Dunno.
4. Debatable, some people say anything lowered more than an inch needs driveshaft spacers.
5. Our stock suspension doesn't use pillow balls at the upper front. It just uses a simple steel upper hat with a rubber washer. They're about $80 for the set. If you have the upper hats already just replace the rubber washer. The steel upper hat will never wear out.
6. Up to you. Look at spring rates and determine how stiff you want to go. The track needs stiff, a street setup gets less and less comfortable the stiffer you get. A square setup generally needs more stiffness to keep you from rubbing, and your front sway bar is going to be stiff, making the ride quality less compliant.
PSS9 is a comfortable street system, but a little soft for serious tracking. KWV3 is stiffer and more track oriented but not as comfortable on the street. If you're going 90% street I don't see a lot of benefit with Ohlins etc unless money isn't an issue.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 12
From: Abilene, Texas
PM LickMYwalker, RedlineITR, and or go to speed-freaks.net. I have been asking them questions and what not about track parts. They are very helpful as there are 6 of them that track there S2000's. On top of everything they hook us up (S2KI guy's.) They gave me a very reasonable quote for a set of KWV3's.
Also if you have a AP1 look into a rear bumpsteer kit. Cheers.
Also if you have a AP1 look into a rear bumpsteer kit. Cheers.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,037
Likes: 26
From: SoCal
And the best advice you can get is to find someone local who has the stuff already on their car and go for a ride/drive.
A square setup with +38 wheels and 255 fronts forces you to make several changes that aren't going be the smoothest ride you've ever felt.
A square setup with +38 wheels and 255 fronts forces you to make several changes that aren't going be the smoothest ride you've ever felt.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 0
From: wausau
I'm in the exact same Boat. Suspension wise, I'm stock right now, and i just ordered 17x9 255/40/17 square set up too.
I'm just planning to get the moddiction front sway bar, and kw-club sports. Hopefully i dont need drive shaft spacers.
I'm just planning to get the moddiction front sway bar, and kw-club sports. Hopefully i dont need drive shaft spacers.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,593
Likes: 75
This is but one path:
http://www.motoiq.com/projects/honda...nda_s2000.aspx
Of course, individual preferences very as to how a car handles. Keep in mind, the AP1 does have more bump steer than the AP2 which makes it more twitchy; a good number of track guys have swapped the AP2 rear subframe/suspension into the AP1s.
http://www.motoiq.com/projects/honda...nda_s2000.aspx
Of course, individual preferences very as to how a car handles. Keep in mind, the AP1 does have more bump steer than the AP2 which makes it more twitchy; a good number of track guys have swapped the AP2 rear subframe/suspension into the AP1s.
