This last weekend at the Porsche Club autocross on the Bus Pad at TMS I noticed that I had a tad more lift throttle oversteer than I wanted. I would like to tame it slightly.

That piece of asphalt makes Mineral Wells feel like it's made of velcro. I was in the first run group and thought I had accidentally gone to the Porsche Drift Club. The grip did improve as the day went on but always felt polished and my tail end was wagging all day.

Even so my times were pretty good, in the 59's where David turned 58's (or so I am told) in his Elise.

The car was pretty balanced up until the time I lifted on the throttle. I am more or less running the UK alignment.

-1 camber up front
6.45 caster
0 toe

rear is -2 camber
and about .2 toe in

Would a change in toe settings help me control it?

 

I noticed some tail out fun coming from your car. I'm thinking a stiffer front sway may be your best bet. Good table here: http://www.s2000.org/articles/suspension/

I had quite the opposite problem. The recent fitiment of a "big" front bar for R-compound tires resulted in MAJOR understeer. If the gas was on the path was straight ahead captain! Fortunatley, I know how to solve my problem. Get the Hoosiers to match the front bar and stop overdriving the corners.

I ran a few 58's on street tires with a 914 on R's running a 56 something FTD. If I had the patience to stick around for the afternoon I'm guessing a 57 was doable on the street tires. Not a terrible showing but it sure felt, and I'm sure looked, like total crap.

Curious what time you guys finally get out of there? I headed out after the "AM" runs ended at 2:30PM.

 

Maybe add some more negative front camber? I think even -1.3 to -1.5 isn't too bad for the street. We're set up on -1.5 and I haven't seen any noticable camber wear on the inside yet in 6000 miles. Also maybe a bit more rear toe in might help. I think UK alignment calls for .20 per side and .40 total. I did notice many of the S's having a bit of tail out after exiting the triangle tunnel into the back slalom.

That surface was pretty slick, the best I could manage on those 205/225 kumho 712's was 61. A better compound like a MX would definetely do wonders. I noticed you were running some 235/265 tires, besides the throttle lift oversteer did you have pretty good solid state cornering grip?

We got out of there at about 4:30 after watching the C6Z06 make a complete fool of himself in his 65K car.

 

We got out of there close to 4. The car was VERY stable and very balanced in every aspect except when lifting on the throttle. That wasn't a bad thing in and of itself, I just wanted a little less.

The Triangle would give me fits. When I lifted to enter the tail hung out, now if I worked it right it hung out all the way around and rotated just perfect to enter at the bottom, BUT lifting even more made entrance fun because it wanted to come around more.

The Box after the slaloom was great because I didn't even have to brake, just lift the throttle and then punch it when I had finally rotated down to the exit.

Yes, Clovis I am sure 57s would have been possible. If I had 2 more runs, heck even one more run I would have had a 58. My best run had a Triangle error (double tail out) and overrunning the "Party of all parts" (last) corner.

I had thought about a little more front and rear camber since I usually run more, it was just the thought of the extra wear on these super expensive tires that stopped me.

The good thing about a stiffer front bar is a little better transistions on slalooms so I might try that. I really hate to mess with the balance tho.

What did the Z 06 do? I saw the Porsche guy that kept spinning and getting lost but other than that, and the gal that went 10 mph around the whole thing, I didn't see any real problem people.

I liked their track concept of "connect the features". It made for an easy set up and easy future design. Just add or pull out features to lengthen or shorten the track. Swap a feature or 2 out and you have a different track. They made good use of the cones too.

 

Z06 guy launched his car leaving 2 huge streaks of rubber right out of the gate and pretty much did a big long tail slide all the way around the first loop, then going up towards the beginning of the triangle after the middle gate he nearly lost it. Made it through the slalom then started driving towards the freaking timing trailer instead of going through the box. They had to make him come to a complete stop until the instructor managed to get him back on course about 10 seconds later.

Didn't see the porsche guy that spun out or got lost and I don't think that "gal driving 10 mph" was my gf. It was her 4th autocross and she turned a 69 without any DNF's or cones so that's not bad, she just needs to be MUCH more liberal with the gas next time

 

The Muz/Whiteline bar is probably your best bet. It's cheap and easy to remove and sell if the balance is not to your liking.

Agree on the course. Good use of cones but I'm just not in to all of the skidpad excercises. Especially considering how it highlighted that understeering tendecy. Entering the back side of the triangle and coming out of the far west box was pretty bad. Enough to make my face turn Red. Just ask Comos.

So how many more runs did you guys get in the PM? Sounds like it went pretty quick.

Comos, tell your GF her driving looked good out there. Line was good and she is very smooth with the car. I think she'll get more aggresive with the throttle as time goes. Right now the cones seem to be coming pretty quick and that surface isn't exactly confidence inspiring.

 

We got 3 more runs.

Actually I only counted the Triangle as a skid pad. The first circle was really just a sweeper.

I understand what you mean about the triangle, the first time I came out of it and headed back over to the gate I didn't get it back under control until about 3/4 way thru the slalom. Of course you would have had exactly the opposite problem since you were understeering. You looked good thru the slalom and exiting the triangle. I worked the slalom so could see a little of the whole track.

Yes, cosmos it wasn't your GF it was a girl in a mini

About the sway bar are you sure that will help the trailing throttle oversteer? I mean it is balanced everywhere else. I think of a stiffer front sway dialing in a little more understeer which I don't need except under that particular circumstance. Am I over thinking this?

I haven't crawled under and looked at it to see how it attaches but how about stiffer sway bar bushings? That helps on a lot of cars.

 

If balance is good everywhere else you probably just need to stop trailing the throttle. That is effectivley applying brakes to the rear wheels, which transfers weight forward, and results in rotation. I use it quite a bit in the tight stuff to help the rear come around.

 

The '02 and '03 AP1 usually stay planted without the need to lift or feather the throttle. If you feel the need to lift or trail the throttle is it possible you're braking a bit late, not enough and/or just carrying a little too much speed into the corner?
A bigger front sway bar will induce a little more push and settle down the rear. Adding more negative camber to the front tends to do just the opposite (with my suspension anyway). Basically if the front gives first the rear doesn't break away as quickly. Too much push and slow speed corners become a chore while the fast ones get easier. Spring rates and the age of your shocks are a factor just like your alignment settings. They can change over time. OEM dampers can worsen quickly from one run to the next when they're worn and run hard. Once you start changing suspension and settings, preferably in small increments, be ready to re-learn your car.
Lots of variables to consider.

 

I believe that's the swaybar on our car, I'm pretty happy with the overall balance. That last alignment really helped make it less twitchy but I just wish there was more overall grip.

David's face was pretty red after sitting in the car in the parking lot staging area for what seemed to be 30 minutes then sitting through a timing malfunction. After his 3 runs he looked like a tomato.

Everyone got 3 runs in the afternoon and I didn't stay for fun runs. I kept telling Jessica her driving was pretty good and it's important to be in control and smooth rather than on the throttle constantly and crazy. She was kind of dissapointed with her time since it was a 69 but I told her the pace will pick up and times will drop as she gets more experience and learns where to be more aggressive. I'm still learning that as well, I've only done the equivalent of less than 2 full seasons.