S2000 powered kit cars
 

Hey guys and girls

Who's running a s2k powered kit car?
What have you got?
How does it drive & how fast is it?

Im in discussion with a kit car company about building one and they have mentioned you need to run a MBE fuel management system to get around the stock ecu seeing a few sensors and items not needed like central locking and ABS, if im just using the engine loom with the ECU then i didnt think i would need this. just fit a alarm for the immobiliser

We will be using stock engine, inlet manifold and sensors, engine mounts, gearbox, gearbox mount, prop (cut down if needed), diff, modified half shafts to meet rear hubs and all the ancillaries

Thanks Rob

Mr vortex and pete findlay

What kit are you thinking of?

I'd certainly be going standalone for management for ease of use and power.

See here https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/838...y-mods-to-help

Hedge avoidance system :D

You will need standalone ecu IMO. Lots of options.

What sort of costs are involved?
Assuming we have the car and an ECU capable of running the engine, how much are we looking at for engine, gearbox and the work necessary to convert (specifically a Zetec to F20C) and does anyone know how tall the installation ends up being?

I suspect we'll only be running the Zetec in the Ginetta for a season before we feel the need for more POWAH! The F20C was one option.

Try MK up near Rotherham.
One of their cars is Honda S2000 Turbo powered (used to be supercharged).
My brother went out for a test drive with one of the guys and it scared him to death !
So much so he bought a kit !

Looking at a MNR Vortx RT+, the guys have built 2 f20 powered ones so far and have amazing knowledge of there product.

Converting from Zetec power is a complete ball ache which is why im looking to start from scratch, the Zetec and F20 spin the other way so you will need to change the diff or you will have 6 reverse and 1 forward gear lol

It is possible but requires lots of work.

The MK Indy is a fantastic kit but the price is very expensive compared to other options that are just as capable

http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/o...on trailer.JPGi have an mnr vortx with s2000 power. its at mnr at the moment, dta s60 is a better unit tham mbe. the only reason they like mbe is daytuner performance use them and do the mapping for mnr. i have used all the items you wanted as well as steering. if you want any info feel free to ask. mnr are far more capable cars than mk. but up to yopu what you go for.

http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/c...r mnr trip.JPG
also. there is 3 s2000 powered mnr's. but 1 is in denmark and belongs to per lind.
i have changed a few bits on mine including the dash and ecu. race technology dash 2 with dta s60 ecu. i bought a damaged 2003 s2000 complete. passenger door damage. and took all the parts from it and sold the rest

who told you that?

the K20 and the F20 spin clockwise, thats why you see many S2000 powered RWD classics. it's the B series engine that spins anticlockwise so you never see them unles the engine is modified to spin clockwise (which is possible with a cam timing change and dry sump oil system)

absolutely not true at all.

The F20C and the Zetec spin the same way.

I suppose you'd wanna dry sump it as that'll give you more clearence.

And no point you running the box.

bozwell.do you know of any rwd boxes which would mate to the k20 ctr engine? possibly looking at a s/c k20 when i do my next kit. cheers

apparently there is a bellhousing available for the Ford type 9 gearbox to mate it to the F20c and have the engine sit upright (Yukspeed?). i dont know whether the bolt pattern is the same as the K20 but you could use any RWD gearbox you want with a CNC cut adaptor plate.

just wondered if there was an off the shelf box and bell housing to make k20 a rwd alternative? as i would imagine its cheaper than a s/c'd f20c?

Awesome, so its your car they have offered to take and send me lots of pics of thats in the warehouse atm,

if i go ahead with it i shall be in touch to hear what you can recommend to do right the first time, thanks Rob

someone in the states has done a k20 conversion in a s2000 using the s2000 gearbox and a adaptor plate he had cnc machined, might be worth doing a search for that

it certainly is rob. ive got hundreds of pics if you want any. its not as cheap as you might think. and it will cost over £15k road legal. or way less if track only!
mnr are top guys also.
have you done any research at all regarding a kit purchase? why do you want the rt+ over the rt? or is it going to be a competition car? the only difference with the rt + is the inner wishbone joints are rose jointed and not poly bushed. these will soon wear out during road use. outer wishbone ends are rose jointed on both models to adjust camber and castor. and toe can be done with steering rack adjuster. kit comes with adjustablle protech alloy dampers (inboard fronts) but i would save on rt+ and buy rt with double adjustable coilovers as per their LMP car

sent you a pm

replied

1) Me!
2) Dax Rush
3) Drives great on the road - still getting the hang of it on the track. Very fast when you want it, or comfortable cruising up to motorway speeds. (VTEC at 4500)

I'm using a DTA S60Pro ECU, I also know Emerald works - both with standard sensors. It is possible to use the stock ECU, popular option in the US and Aus, but you'll need some patience to work around the the loom changes necessary.

Attachment 106331

that dax looks cool!

thanks for that info Pete, your Dax looks very nice indeed,

did you build it yourself?

All my own work :) Took 2 1/2 years in the garage. Had a few distractions, otherwise would've been a bit quicker. Proof that you can build a kit car with no specialist skills and hand-tools only!

Hey Dan :hello: ... Your MNR is looking particularly good now it's out in the open! Good luck with IVA.

mine or petes? mine is getting mapped at daytuner performance in harrogate. my car was wired by jdm but i wouldnt use the dyno their, the car i used to own with a zx9 kawasaki had about 120bhp at the wheels. the guy i sold it to took it to jdm and got a reading of over 160 whp. which is in no way accurate.. you would be lucky to get that from a busa or zzr1400 mevermind a 12 year old zx9

Its because he never measures in WHP oddly, that would have been BHP which is 'about' right if anything slightly high.

He is upgrading the dyno to a 1000WHP with new rollers etc, the dyno has seen better days lol.

yeah he was a nice guy and clued up but the dyno was shoddy and those engines never made close to those figures when new. probably around the 120 bhp mark. my later R1 motor was only 150 bhp. 133 at wheels

That looks 'the bollocks'

thanks MB, i saw a pic of your s2k on track with an mk indy (hayabusa i think) following. a white one. had you just passed it or was it gaining on you?

I suspect it was just about to punish me :D

Don't get past many caterham things :cry:

bigger turbo needed!!!!

Took that off a long time ago ;)

Around the same time he turned all :gay:


--time to creep back into my garage and get on with replacing my transmission components again some more.

:D

Rob, did you smash the S up that bad it can't be repaired?

No its repairable but with the money from insurance company and the parts i have to sell its worth more money if i break it then to fix and sell it, been thinking of a new project for a little while now and its just the BUMP i needed to move on

Thanks for your advice mnr vortx but I have now sold the running gear so won't be looking into this any more,
Time to move onto a new toy

That would be handy, the Ginetta has a type 9 with Quaife straight cut internals so it would be nice to keep it, plus the savingss over having a CNC shop making one up from scratch. I'll look into that, thanks.

The only possible downside is the height of the F20C, we want to lower and flat-floor the Ginetta which won't leave a huge amount of room for a tall engine, anyone know the dimensions of the F20C with a dry sump?

Bonnet bump it is, just like boz's s800!

The type9 also weighs a good deal less than the S2000 box!

Definitely bellhousings out there as Quaife sequentials use type9 dimensions. Hence if you can get a sequential box for an F20C, you can get the bell housing and you're away. Can't see it being particularly cheap mind!

The dry sump will be about 1" deep so you will gain 2-3" of clearence which is quite a lot!

At £1200, it isn't cheap :(

F20C is only one option of several, but we like it because it's 240bhp from 2litres with no mods.
To get that from a Duratec reliably we'd have to go 2.3 and that gets expensive.

Other options are a V6 of some sort (we like this, but again, £££ for the Duratec used by Ginetta in the G50, although a 3l Jag V6 from an S-Type is to all intents a Duratec) or going blown, which we don't like much for racing, too peaky.

We want 200-250bhp without increasing weight.

the guy i have just sold my engine and gearbox to is fitting it to a space frame MK5 escort rally/sprint car, his car is cutrrently fitted with a 2.9 granada V6 and he cant wait to drop the F20 in there :D

im in the middle of an s2000 engine install into my westy at the moment.engine/drivetrains all in. r.e.d dry sump too with a&h fab tank..so all looking good. now its getting tricky as Ive got lots of wiring to do. Im having to install the standard ecu (to pass emissions in germany (i live there most of year)). But I cant get hold of a service manual for the right year... its a 2005 ap2... but the only one I can get hold of is the 2000-2003 american one which is the 2.0l version, but the wiring is different, for example the clocks have 4 plugs in back instead of 2 in mine.
has anyone got a manual for the 2005 engine?

If I were you, i'd seriously be considering a bike engine.

ZZR1400 will offer up 200bhp, but shed you 70kg.

You get the sequential box too.

We don't have AP2 in the UK, all UK engines are 2 litre AP1. Unless you have bought an actual AP2 engine from the US or somewhere...?

The dax looks good Pete & im sure its lots of fun too, just wondering what budget you need to get one of these up and running for road use as well?

Mark, i'm sure you know but the S2000 has never made 237 bhp on any reputable dyno. Tend to be about 220 bhp, or 180-190 at the wheels. Just worth bearing in mind if you are comparing to another engine who's figures are honest :D

You mention using the steering from the donor car, did that include the rack along with the Electric Power Steering? This might be a stupid question but how did you wire it? Just looking at the manual it seems to take various inputs for speed, etc.

Thanks

I made 231BHP with an AEM V2 and decat :(

AP1 and AP2 are Chassis references. The engine is F20C (in the AP1 - IE ALL UK Cars) and F22C in AP2. I know you know this Mark, just adding some clarity :)

whilst I was looking into putting an s2000 engine into a westy, I talked to a few people and got as much advice as I could before starting. one piece of advice I was regularly given was to be careful when getting an exhaust fabricated for the s2000. modern engines tend to have equal length primaries, but if you look at the std s2000 ones theyre far from equal. a bloke I know had an exhaust made by a very reputable company in englans (wont name names) and pulled 242hp at fly on tbs.. he wasnt happy with this and got another exhaust made up, which then made 258hp on same dyno. just shows how much difference it can make.
mike from race engine design, told me of a customer who bought a 255hp setup off them (was tested on their dyno with their exhaust). the customer cam back a few months later complaning about low power-clearly they couldnt understand it so they dynod his, and unbelievable he was only getting 202hp at fly!!!!! so they swapped his exhaust for theirs and dynod the exact 255hp...
clearly an extreme example, but just shows what difference it can make

thats the one thing im not overly happy with on mine. the manifold was given to me by another forum member so i couldnt turn it down. i have prm intake and DTAs60 pro ecu and am not expecting more than 190 whp. still should be awesome in a 600 kg car.
with regards to steering,i used steering wheel,upper colum (slightly modified to suit), horn, indicator and lighting stalks but not the rack itself. sorry if i misled you on that!

ive just had jp exhausts make up my exhaust. I sent them the std manifold and told them to work off that, and simply change angles but keep as close to lengths as poss. they did a good job-i think!
mnr vortx f20c, have you got a youtube clip I can watch of yours? would like to see roughly how quick mines going to be soon!!!

search for pwl on youtube. or mnr vortx s2000
he has a white one with full cage and its very quick.

Honest figures from an engine builder? That'll be the day :D

Ron, bike engines are just too fragile - they don't stand up to the abuse in racing particularly well and what we need at the moment, both being new dads is a race car we don't have to spend a lot of time on (that's why the Clio went). Bike power is definitely out.

Besides, I'm a bit of a chuffer so I need more power, not more lightness ;)

Interesting, but the people I have spoken to say the opposite and of course you have the 750MC RGB championship.

Spoke to a bloke who ran a Rotrexed CBR1000RR in his RAW Striker and that lasted him a season and a half at the time.

But if you want the F20C, who am I to argue!

I spoke to a bloke that told me his Astra VXR could 'blow away' the Clio we were racing on a Croft trackday, he was soon disabused of that notion. People will tell all sorts, doesn't mean it's true.

From experience I've been put off bike engines. In my experience they need to be looked after carefully, they're not built to haul around 750kgs of Ginetta. A bike engine might be fine, but there's more chance of it letting go than a car angine, and reliability is what we're after.

It's not necessarily that they go pop at will, it's that to stop them going pop, especially on a car that weighs a bit more than a standard Seven you need to keep them in good nick.
Which means spending time on them. Precisely what we don't want to do.
And why a car engine, preferably one designed to power something heavier is likely to be much more reliable, an important consideration for us as we both have young families that take up a lot of our time.

The bike powered Fury I race against went through 3 engines last season, both failures resulting in rods through the side of the block, that bloke will tell you that bike power is an unreliable pain in the arse.

Didn't think I'd have to spell it out in such simple terms to you Ron.....

Ultimately, I have a car engine in my car - basically, it's the engine that you want in your Ginny as it'd mate nicely up to your type9. Admittedly, you are dealing with a 16kg weight penalty over a Durabang, but a Zetec is also Iron blocked :)

The weight of the car isn't an issue TBH. Power is power and weight will only affect the acceleration. It will not put more loading on the engine.

I completely gather your experience tells you they are unreliable, but I spent a lot of time researching all of this cr4p. Honda engines are the best for reliability, but Busa engines (that haven't been fettled) are very good indeed. Yamaha/Kawazaki litre jobbies seem to blow up though :)

Oh, and if you want a JDM F20C with 58k miles on (20k by me with services every 4-5k miles that have been documented), I have one for sale :)

My experiences are the same as Mark's. I've spent a fair bit of time around bike engined 7s (and their sweary owners).

Your research should include following a car for a whole season, or see if you can get a radical owner to give you breakdown of a season's costs ;)

It's not just the engines that play up, a lot of it is the bits attached to them that were not designed for that environment.

Mark, get some pics up :thumbup:

We definitely don't want a YB, we're running the Zetec for a season and then we want a decent power hike and if possible, a commensurate weight loss - a YB would be a backward step, as would an XE, tunable and flexible as they are.

There's a reason most people go Duratec these days, and it's probably where we'll end up - but we want to explore all the possibilities before we decide.

i spoke to rik at cnc heads a while back, and he reccons that the st170 head will make more power than the duratec one (think he quoted me some figures -something like hed made 292ish from the duratec but made 310 from st170)...
I know these figures dont mean a lot as it depends on the rest of the engine/car setup as to how the power is delivered, but obviously the st170 head has better flow, even after both have been opened up.
obviously the duratec is the golden boy as the blocks a bit lighter... but I would imagine theyre probably not as strong...?
I found a company a while back who specialise in honda engines. they had some great deals. the only reason I didnt go that way was because the k20 engine doesnt fit well in a westy. the flywheels massive something like 13".to change that meant adapting the starter pulley and that was going to cost...
but anyway the engines they offered were for example...
k20 forged rev to 9600 rpm, 306hp for 8k...
or another one was a 2.4 litre, which is the bottom end off the accord 2.4, mated to the top end of type r 2.0l.. that also got just over 300hp, and he offered it me for something like 6-7k...
both are a bargain for that sort of power, imho.
to get that sort of power out of a duratec or similar youll probably have to spend about 15-18k..
food for thought..
heres the site if anyones interested-

http://websites.uk-plc.net/DMF_PERFO...nd_Engines.htm

oh and forgot to mention, i went down the s2000 route in the end. but if I wanted to get those sort of numbers it would cost me a fortune.... they dont offer as many parts for the s2000.. the type r is the daddy at the mo, with its ivtec, as opposed to the vtec of s2000.
but 220-230hp in a westy should be enough ;-)

Is that an st170 head on a Zetec block? If so it might be a cheap mod for the season....

Like the sound of the 2.4 at 300bhp for £6-7k - as you say, there aren't many I4s producing that sort of power without blowers - I'd be worried about reliability at those figures though.

Bookmarked the site and will definitely have a chat with them when we come to look at Zetec replacement though - thanks.

wouldnt worry too much about reliability honda engines are bloody strong...
apparently the type r on tbs will fetch 225-230hp..
change the bottom end to the 2.4ltr accord one, and mount the same head on with tbs and your looking at somewhere around 280hp already!!!
then go overbore which is what they do to get 300+.
if 280hp wouold be enough, you could have that much cheaper... probably for 6k with itbs..
can defo tell you that he offered me the 2.6ltr with aem ecu (not cheap!) and itbs for 8k (308hp). he will make deals.

before anyone says it; no i dont work for them!! was just bloody impressed by the prices!
if only the flywheel hadnt been so big it would have gone in my westy

p.s I believe the st170 uses the zetec bottom end. speak to rik at cncheads. hes not cheap, but a wealth of knowledge.
the standard zetec bottom end he said will take up to 250hp. so he offered me an opened up head with the highest spec cams I could go for whilst using the std bottom end-including taking apart and rebuilding came to something like 4k.. and 250bhp guarenteed by him.(obviously youll need some 45 tbs, but guessing youll have them-alternatively you can use the hayabusa ones as theyll produce just as much)

then again if you spend 4k on upgrading the zetec, you may aswell go the whole hog and try the honda route. as youll have nowhere to go with the zetec unless you want to change all pistons rods crank etc.... where as the skys the limit with the honda.

That's what we're thinking.
Add to that the fact the Zetec in the Ginetta is a 1.8, not a 2l and it seems a bit daft spending too much (yes, we have ITBs).
That's what got us thinking about starting again with something new - our series is flexible in that there are classes for pretty much anything, there's a Jade chassis, running a 2.3 Duratec with a silhouette Elise body attached while at the other end of the scale, there's a Morgan +4 - we ran a Clio Cup last year, but moved to the Ginetta for cost and the fact it will be cheaper to develop.

As for how much hp is enough, well, whatever you have is never enough, but I'd say 250+ with no weight increase should put us somewhere near G50 times, which is ultimately what we would like to do.

Yep, ST170 is a posh Zetec. And I wouldn't go anywhere near 250bhp with a standard Zetec bottom end because the rods/pistons are made of chocolate. Even the 200bhp ones I know of have been forged at the bottom (rods/pistons)

Hayabusa TBs are ok, but they'll limit your progress and don't provide the same driveability as car items

As for the stroked K engines.....

If you want reliability, I wouldn't go near them.

Remember that the F20C is forged and has a short 84mm stroke. I wouldn't go revving that to 10,000 and expect reliability.

just read...the st170 has got different pistons and rods to the zetec. its only the block casing thats the same. it has cast alu pistons and steel rods, so will take more than 200hp. albeit over 250 youll be wanting some decent bits.
dont know where you get this idea that the honda engines arent reliable. id say theyre possibly the most reliable 2.0 n/a engines out there.
the f20c is bulletproof. will take 400hp (from supercharger or turbo) without having to even modify it!spoken to a few people who have done it.
know someone who managed to melt a piston on the k20 engine tho after installing a supercharger-but think that can be forgiven on a standand engine!apparently the k doesnt quite have the strength of the f when it comes to big power.

Fwiw if you want to know about a zetec 170 engine give me a shout, helped on modifications on these iirc itbs etc made 240 bhp reliably.

Reliant Kitten Carbon Fibre
 

I've just sold my Honda s2000 stroker engine and sequential box from my Reliant Kitten sprint/drag/race car.
Rolling chassis is now up for sale, complete with everything, just needs engine and box.
Fuel system, low and high pressure fuel pumps, foam filled fuel tank with internal swirl pot, cav filter etc.
Loom, aircraft quality, dta s80 & dash, wheel speed sensors each corner, traction control, traction aggression, launch, traction can be adjusted live, 12 position pot on dash, data logging etc
Brakes, adjustable pedal box, wilwood 4 pots each corner, alloy bells etc
Carbon fibre shell, doors, bonnet, includes all moulds, great for a project!!!!
5 linked rear axle LSD 4.3:1 cwp, 108 pcd, watts link center chassis mounted, all adjustable, coil overs each corner, alloy front hubs and uprights etc.
3" exhaust system
Carbon full under tray

Link to advert https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...0honda%20s2000