How economical is it to peel your smashed car off the guardrail?

I'm being dramatic on purpose - you've blown off excellent advice from several very experienced members of the forum. I'll add my weight in here too. DO NOT alter the staggered setup of your car unless you are prepared to modify the suspension with the assitance of a knowledgeable person to dial it in properly. Since that will change the nicely setup handling of the car, and since you enjoy driving the car for said balance, stick with the OEM setup and live with frequent rear tire changes.

Here's what can happen when you slightly exceed the limits on a nicely balanced MY 2000 S2000, the most tail-happy of all model years. Imagine how much easier it would be if you increase oversteer with what you propose to do!

 

Ok, hopefully I'm not too far off topic, but I have a similar question to GroovyNeilNeil's:

I have the stock AP1 wheels on my car, and a few months ago when it was time to replace my tires, I replaced the front 205/55/16 with a 215/55/16, and kept the rears the same. I did it because I was really tired of the snap oversteer that occurred whenever I pushed the car hard (which is quite often). Putting the 215 on the front significantly reduced the "snap" and replaced it with predictable oversteer.

I really like the way it feels now! I would like a bit more oversteer though, so I was going to replace the 215 in the front with the same size as the rear, so i would be running 225/50/16 all the way around. Are you all saying that if I made this change, the handling would be catastrophically affected?

 

That's strange, all else being equal, going to wider front tires should increase oversteer, not decrease it. Are the tires all matched in terms of manufacturer and model? Making decisions based on tire width alone does not give enough information to determine relative grip levels.

Again, all else being equal, running the same size tires all around will dramatically upset the balance of the car. Your 2003 (like mine) has more benign handling compared to the earlier years, but is a bit more twitchy than the AP2s.

 

No, see, thats what I'm saying, when I went to wider front tires, oversteer was definitely increased, but it was a lot more predictable. I just wanted to get rid of the "snap" oversteer, where it would grip grip grip then without warning SIDEWAYS!

Now I can feel the back end coming around before it actually does. But it still understeers to some degree, so I thought that maybe if I go 225 all around, it would help make it even more predictable, with even less understeer.

Am I wrong?

 

Maybe 4WHLBKE was tired of the snap understeer.

 

4WHLBKE - What you are describing is still contrary to what I and many others have experienced. Let's define some terms:

Oversteer = the tendency for the rear end of the car to lose grip before the front.
Understeer = the tendency for the front end of the car to lose grip before the rear.
Snap Oversteer = Rapid onset of oversteer at the grip limits of the tire.

These tendencies are under steady-state cornering loads. If the loads are changing, for example during turn-in or track out, different handling balance may be experienced.

Driver input has a lot to do with perceived balance. Also, the type of tire weighs heavily in this assessment. You did not answer my question about tire types, and you also need to consider tire age. Old, worn rear tires (even those with plenty of tread left) will cause the "snap" oversteer that you describe. So will inappropriate driver inputs.

All else being equal, increasing grip at the front of the car will induce more oversteer, both under steady state and transient conditions. What you are describing as "snap" oversteer may be your inability to detect the onset of oversteer before it occurs. It is always best to apply corrective action before the back end steps out since catching a slide is more challenging than preventing it.

Bottom line: going to equal sized tires of the same type will not imporve the handling balance of your car. I suggest that you invest in some driver training to better understand what you are experiencing and how to correct it.

 

CoralDoc, i am very familiar with the concepts of oversteer and understeer, however i do appreciate your efforts to make sure we are on the same level. It's unfortunate that neither of us know each other and our respective experience, in order to understand better where each of us are coming from.

I will admit, I do not have any formal track experience or driver training. However, in the past year of owning this car I have driven 30,000 miles, and a rather large portion of that has been pushing it to its outer limits on some intense canyon roads, while timing myself. All of my data is born from these outings, and it is my basis for comparison when talking about feel of the car and how it reacts.

Now, answering your question about my tires, I have never been able to keep a set of them for more than a few months. I always keep the same brand and model on front and back, and they are always fresh. I have been driving with Kumho Ecsta SPT's, and have been driving with them since I bought the car, in order to keep my experiences constant.

I prefer to have an abundance of oversteer, because it allows me to have more flexibility, and more of an opportunity to play with the overall balance of the car in mid corner, so that I may slightly adjust my cornering angle according to changing conditions. From my experience, I have achieved this flexibility by putting wider tires on the front while keeping the rears untouched, thereby increasing front grip and giving the rear the opportunity to be more communicative about stepping out.

Does that make sense? Or have I got this all wrong?

 

Thanks for the background and the information about the tires.

Going with wider fronts will allow the rear tires to break free at lower perceived tire loads. Since the fronts will maintain grip, the rears will break free before slip angles up front become appreciable. This will give the feeling of a planted front end with the back end rather loose and catchable. If you like sliding the back end around turns (sounds like drifting), a non-staggered setup will allow you to achieve that goal at the expense of better balance and faster cornering speeds.

 

I will have to agree with Coral Doc on this one. I went from 205/245 to 225/255 and my oversteer is worse even with a solid front sway bar. I am currently getting the bushings re-done on my car with delrin and the oversteer has become worse but less sloppy. The rear end is stiffer and a little easier to control (more manageable) Hopefully with the new springs and shock some of my problems will go away.

 

Exactly! That is the feeling I have come to like! It's a bit more fun too.

hmmm, my overall times improved with the change to 215's in the front, and i attributed that to the fact i could make mid-turn changes by adjusting the angle of the car by being able to swing the back around when I needed it, instead of having to back off on the throttle to make adjustments. Do you think if I went with 225's on the front and stuffed 245's on the stockers, it would improve my cornering speeds, without sacrificing the predictability? Or would it go right back to being snap oversteer instead of usable oversteer?