Alignment Specs
12-04-2011, 07:28 PM
#1
Alignment Specs
I just recently got an alignment and i dont think they did a good job simply because the camber did not change at all in the rear and a few other guys told me that the front/rear are a huge difference. Can anyone help me out on this?? Im currently lowered on tein s tech springs and im pretty much evenly tucking a little tire all around on my stock ap2 v2's.
The shop said that because i was lowered this was the best i could do. But will these specs affect performance? I have almost no camber up front and -2.8 in the rear.
Before-
Left front: -0.7 camber 1/16 toe
Right font: -0.5 camber -7/32 toe
Left rear: -2.8 camber 1/4 toe
Right rear: -2.8 camber 1/8 toe
After-
Left front: -0.4 camber 0 toe
Right font: -0.5 camber 1/32 toe
Left rear: -2.8 camber 7/32 toe
Right rear: -2.8 camber 1/8 toe
*im a noob, sorry. Im also debating on a camber kit but i will wait for inputs.
The shop said that because i was lowered this was the best i could do. But will these specs affect performance? I have almost no camber up front and -2.8 in the rear.
Before-
Left front: -0.7 camber 1/16 toe
Right font: -0.5 camber -7/32 toe
Left rear: -2.8 camber 1/4 toe
Right rear: -2.8 camber 1/8 toe
After-
Left front: -0.4 camber 0 toe
Right font: -0.5 camber 1/32 toe
Left rear: -2.8 camber 7/32 toe
Right rear: -2.8 camber 1/8 toe
*im a noob, sorry. Im also debating on a camber kit but i will wait for inputs.
12-04-2011, 08:09 PM
#2
From a semi aggressive track performance standpoint, -2.8 is right in the area you want to be. I run -3. Anymore then that and you are working against yourself. I run -2.5 up front so yeah If it were me I would add at least another negative degree for your set up with the front. 1/4 toe in back is good and 0 up front is great. 5-6 range for caster.
12-04-2011, 08:15 PM
#3
By the looks of things, your car is lowered about 35mm? I think at that height they won't be able to give you less than 2 degrees in the rear, but should be able to give you less than 2.8, with a little effort. As for the front, you should be looking for 1 or 1.25 degrees, certainly more than you currently have.
The toe settings all around are a little messed up, is it possible they set the toe first, then tried to adjust the camber? It's super easy to set the toe correctly with decent laser alignment equipment, but it should be set last, as adjusting camber afterwards will throw it off.
Long story short, you need more front camber, less rear camber, toe dead ahead at the front, and about 20 minutes per side at the rear. Make sure they adjust the toe after camber and not before. HTH
The toe settings all around are a little messed up, is it possible they set the toe first, then tried to adjust the camber? It's super easy to set the toe correctly with decent laser alignment equipment, but it should be set last, as adjusting camber afterwards will throw it off.
Long story short, you need more front camber, less rear camber, toe dead ahead at the front, and about 20 minutes per side at the rear. Make sure they adjust the toe after camber and not before. HTH
12-05-2011, 04:25 AM
#5
Moderator
Yeah, if you must run that much camber in the rear, I'd have them increase the front to -2.0 or so. The toe would bother me. I'd want completely 0 toe in the front and even toe in the rear, but I'm kind of a perfectionist. 
12-05-2011, 04:59 AM
#6
WAY too much rear toe. Btw, it looks like they didn't touch the rear at all, 7/32 is only 1/32 less than 1/4, just breathing on the car could toggle between 1/4 and 7/32 if 1/32 is the resolution.
That much rear toe, and that much rear toe assymetry is IMO unacceptable. That's 0.8 degrees! That will cut your tire life to less than half what it would be, AND give worse, more twitchy and nonlinear handling characteristics, AND measurably worse fuel mileage. I'd take it back and insist on knocking it down to 0.2 - 0.3 degrees total, or about 1/8" total, 1/16" per side.
And they should be able to get you at least 1.5degrees camber up front.
That much rear toe, and that much rear toe assymetry is IMO unacceptable. That's 0.8 degrees! That will cut your tire life to less than half what it would be, AND give worse, more twitchy and nonlinear handling characteristics, AND measurably worse fuel mileage. I'd take it back and insist on knocking it down to 0.2 - 0.3 degrees total, or about 1/8" total, 1/16" per side.
And they should be able to get you at least 1.5degrees camber up front.
12-05-2011, 05:48 AM
#7
Also, they *should* be able to dial out some of your rear camber, 2.8 is kind of a lot on the street, but not NEARLY as big a deal for tire wear as that ridiculous amount of rear toe.
Other than the change in left front camber, it looks like they ONLY adjusted front toe. Did they charge you for a full alignment? Cuz they sure didn't give you one...
Other than the change in left front camber, it looks like they ONLY adjusted front toe. Did they charge you for a full alignment? Cuz they sure didn't give you one...
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12-05-2011, 11:09 AM
#8
Yeah I rather avoid them an just go pay someone else. I get pretty freaking hot headed when things don't go my way if I pay or stuff and I have a feeling that if I went back there they would try to argue and get the upper hand. I'll just find someone else.
So Imma shoot or 0 toe all around and 1.5 in the front and 2.5 in the rear for the camber. I am low so maybe that might be the lowes I can go.
So Imma shoot or 0 toe all around and 1.5 in the front and 2.5 in the rear for the camber. I am low so maybe that might be the lowes I can go.
12-05-2011, 12:53 PM
#9
Moderator
I would have a little toe in (like 5-6mm) on the rear, but that's just my preference (and Honda's too). 
12-05-2011, 05:16 PM
#10
Agree that some toe-in is good, but imo 5-6mm total (0.5 degrees) is a bit on the high side.
I've run the gamut of toe settings on the street and at the track, from 0.15deg total to 1.05deg total. More sucks, bad, for everything. Less is better, for everything.
When I first started tracking the S, I ran the max US toe, 0.64deg as I was concerned about excessive oversteer. The car handled OK at Watkins Glen, but some of the twitchy behavior the AP1 is famous for was in evidence. By the end of my second event (sharing the car) at Mosport, the rears were GONE, and the car was practically undriveable. The rears were DONE, shredded practically to the cords. That was after about ~6hrs track time. I *had* to reduce the toe. I asked for 0.15 degrees per side, about the min US spec, but the shop gave me 0.15 degrees *total* rear toe. I was worried that the car would become unmanagable at the track, but in fact it behaved more linearly, turned in better while being supremely stable, and I got a TON more life (like, 2x the life or better).
Fast forward a couple of years, and in the wet at Mosport (with some standing water), the car was well nigh undriveable! It wiggled left and right down the straights, then wouldn't turn in for anything in the corners. WTF?! And on the street, over any undulations/bumps, the car was all over the place. And tire wear was ABYSMAL again (3000 street miles and one track day on a set of Dunlop Sport Maxx TTs). Sure enough, the alignment had shifted, all the way to 0.5degrees/0.55 degrees, 1.05deg total!
Knocked it back down to 0.1 per side, 0.2degrees total, and DAMN what a difference!
This car is a hoot with minimal toe-in, and it is a freaking BITCH on wheels with too much.
In the S, Z, I've found that too much rear toe has a ton of negatives, and haven't found any downsides to running as low as 0.15.
I would have more qualms about running 0.5 degrees total than I would running zero rear toe.
Still, I recommend in the 0.2-0.3 range for most people to give a little margin.
FWIW, Honda isn't always *right*. They were wrong when they designed the AP1 rear suspension to gain toe-in with bump, and they were wrong to prescribe a ton of rear toe-in as a "fix".
Anyway, 2c from a guy who tried the spec toe, and HATED it. UK spec is even more ludicrous, 0.67 - 1.33 degrees total! I'm convinced they improperly interpreted the real spec.
I've run the gamut of toe settings on the street and at the track, from 0.15deg total to 1.05deg total. More sucks, bad, for everything. Less is better, for everything.
When I first started tracking the S, I ran the max US toe, 0.64deg as I was concerned about excessive oversteer. The car handled OK at Watkins Glen, but some of the twitchy behavior the AP1 is famous for was in evidence. By the end of my second event (sharing the car) at Mosport, the rears were GONE, and the car was practically undriveable. The rears were DONE, shredded practically to the cords. That was after about ~6hrs track time. I *had* to reduce the toe. I asked for 0.15 degrees per side, about the min US spec, but the shop gave me 0.15 degrees *total* rear toe. I was worried that the car would become unmanagable at the track, but in fact it behaved more linearly, turned in better while being supremely stable, and I got a TON more life (like, 2x the life or better).
Fast forward a couple of years, and in the wet at Mosport (with some standing water), the car was well nigh undriveable! It wiggled left and right down the straights, then wouldn't turn in for anything in the corners. WTF?! And on the street, over any undulations/bumps, the car was all over the place. And tire wear was ABYSMAL again (3000 street miles and one track day on a set of Dunlop Sport Maxx TTs). Sure enough, the alignment had shifted, all the way to 0.5degrees/0.55 degrees, 1.05deg total!
Knocked it back down to 0.1 per side, 0.2degrees total, and DAMN what a difference!
This car is a hoot with minimal toe-in, and it is a freaking BITCH on wheels with too much.
In the S, Z, I've found that too much rear toe has a ton of negatives, and haven't found any downsides to running as low as 0.15.
I would have more qualms about running 0.5 degrees total than I would running zero rear toe.
Still, I recommend in the 0.2-0.3 range for most people to give a little margin.
FWIW, Honda isn't always *right*. They were wrong when they designed the AP1 rear suspension to gain toe-in with bump, and they were wrong to prescribe a ton of rear toe-in as a "fix".
Anyway, 2c from a guy who tried the spec toe, and HATED it. UK spec is even more ludicrous, 0.67 - 1.33 degrees total! I'm convinced they improperly interpreted the real spec.