Tires Are Gone Over a Weekend Trip.
06-08-2019, 02:11 AM
#51
So relatively mild camber compared to the OP which had roughly a full degree more, that will change the wear rate significantly.
06-08-2019, 04:13 AM
#52
"Run less than the minimum spec rear toe-in and handling will improve, and rear tire life will become reasonable. 0.15 to 0.25 degrees total rear toe-in, or 0.065 inches to 0.11 inches *total*."
Minimum spec is 0.16 total. The difference we are talking about here between ZDan's personal highest recommended limit for toe, (0.11 inches total), and the minimum Honda toe spec, is .05 inches. Doesn't seem like an earth shattering issue either way to me. But, I don't claim to have the experience or expertise that you folks have. So, I am listening to this discussion with interest.
I have always felt that my car handles quite well on the street at the minimum spec. (but I'm of course open to making it even better). I typically get about 10K miles on the rears (street summer tires) at this setting.
ZDan - have you ever driven your car set to the minimum oem spec? Can you compare the handling characteristics between your recommendation and oem minimum setting of .16 inches total? Specifically, what are the handling differences if you dial down the toe from the minimum honda spec to your recommended spec.? I'm talking about street driving only.
Minimum spec is 0.16 total. The difference we are talking about here between ZDan's personal highest recommended limit for toe, (0.11 inches total), and the minimum Honda toe spec, is .05 inches. Doesn't seem like an earth shattering issue either way to me. But, I don't claim to have the experience or expertise that you folks have. So, I am listening to this discussion with interest.
I have always felt that my car handles quite well on the street at the minimum spec. (but I'm of course open to making it even better). I typically get about 10K miles on the rears (street summer tires) at this setting.
ZDan - have you ever driven your car set to the minimum oem spec? Can you compare the handling characteristics between your recommendation and oem minimum setting of .16 inches total? Specifically, what are the handling differences if you dial down the toe from the minimum honda spec to your recommended spec.? I'm talking about street driving only.
Last edited by rpg51; 06-08-2019 at 05:47 AM.
06-08-2019, 05:03 AM
#53
As for Honda's big r&d budget equaling best results, I think its an assumption to think the geometry and alignment specs were chosen together and for the same goal.
For all we know, engineers were told to design in the dynamic toe change (for the same reasons it was done on all those other sports cars from slightly prior era), and only later once it was too late to change did someone decide it was too much. Perhaps some executive type was told a generic solution to dynamic toe instability is to add more initial rear toe, and he ordered that to be done. Perhaps there was no time to really r&d if that was the best toe setting to use.
We don't know what happened or why or who chose the alignment specs...
For all we know, engineers were told to design in the dynamic toe change (for the same reasons it was done on all those other sports cars from slightly prior era), and only later once it was too late to change did someone decide it was too much. Perhaps some executive type was told a generic solution to dynamic toe instability is to add more initial rear toe, and he ordered that to be done. Perhaps there was no time to really r&d if that was the best toe setting to use.
We don't know what happened or why or who chose the alignment specs...
06-09-2019, 06:54 AM
#54
ZDan - have you ever driven your car set to the minimum oem spec? Can you compare the handling characteristics between your recommendation and oem minimum setting of .16 inches total? Specifically, what are the handling differences if you dial down the toe from the minimum honda spec to your recommended spec.? I'm talking about street driving only.
But I've never had it specifically set to the minimum OEM spec.
I would just state that I noted NO ill handling effects, only positive benefits on the street or at the track when I reset it from near-max spec rear toe-in down to 0.15 degrees total (0.11 inches).
Changing rear toe from min spec of 0.16 inches total down to 0.11 inches total would likely result in noticeable improvement in rear tire life Changes in handling demeanor might be subtle but I would expect slightly improved responsiveness at turn-in and less "moving around" over bumps or in traction-challenged conditions.
06-09-2019, 08:11 AM
#55
Next time I get it aligned I may give it a try for the heck of it. I have a good alignment guy and it isn't expensive to do. I'm getting some new wheels and tires later in the summer. Maybe that is the time to try it.
06-09-2019, 01:16 PM
#56
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Thread Starter
I wouldnt get too hung up on fractions of a degree of toe. And it doesn't matter if the factory settings aren't your cup of tea.
Factory toe setting shouldn't wear out tires in 3K miles. Even a setting that's in excess of that by quite a bit shouldn't, since there's a big margin left by any factory setting.
OP, did your previous set of tires wear like that?
You sure the alignment machine is properly calibrated? Tried getting the alignment checked elsewhere?
Why did you re-set suspension preload?
What else is done to the car?
You probably loaded the trunk up with a million LB's of stuff before leaving on your trip....plus driver/passenger weight. THAT might push your alignment out by a lot. So maybe no mystery there. You could try measuring the alignment with the car loaded up. Or just get new tires and monitor them.
You can check if your sway bars are preloaded by disconnecting one link and putting the car on even ground. The disconnected link should then be able to be connected without forcing it to align to the LCA eyelet. This has to be done on a flat slab though. Probably an alignment rack. Neither your garage or driveway or street will work.
Factory toe setting shouldn't wear out tires in 3K miles. Even a setting that's in excess of that by quite a bit shouldn't, since there's a big margin left by any factory setting.
OP, did your previous set of tires wear like that?
You sure the alignment machine is properly calibrated? Tried getting the alignment checked elsewhere?
Why did you re-set suspension preload?
What else is done to the car?
You probably loaded the trunk up with a million LB's of stuff before leaving on your trip....plus driver/passenger weight. THAT might push your alignment out by a lot. So maybe no mystery there. You could try measuring the alignment with the car loaded up. Or just get new tires and monitor them.
You can check if your sway bars are preloaded by disconnecting one link and putting the car on even ground. The disconnected link should then be able to be connected without forcing it to align to the LCA eyelet. This has to be done on a flat slab though. Probably an alignment rack. Neither your garage or driveway or street will work.
I'm currently sitting at .20 total toe and I'm still think that is too aggressive for the life I expect to get off these tires.
I'm taking the car on another trip soon and will keep close monitor on the tires this time.
06-12-2019, 10:06 AM
#57
I'm finding myself agreeing with ZDan and his verdict. Sometime around the beginning of May I decreased the pre-load by 7mm in the rear portion of the car, resulting on a 1/8th of an inch drop. After that I started putting a bunch of miles on the car, and the resulting toe coming back .20 inches on the one side. Assuming the same for both sides, that is .40 inches total total toe-in, .16 inches more than OEM specs for an AP1 which we are currently debating that those might be too aggressive for tire life.
I'm currently sitting at .20 total toe and I'm still think that is too aggressive for the life I expect to get off these tires.
I'm taking the car on another trip soon and will keep close monitor on the tires this time.
I'm currently sitting at .20 total toe and I'm still think that is too aggressive for the life I expect to get off these tires.
I'm taking the car on another trip soon and will keep close monitor on the tires this time.
If you change ride height by 12mm and don't go back for an alignment.....mystery solved...
06-23-2019, 01:13 PM
#58
For front toe, I'm running very slight toe out, just .01 degree per side. I haven't done enough experimenting, all other things equal, to say whether I feel any difference with toe out/zero toe.
To Car Analogy's point in assuming Honda's R&D. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle of them experimenting a ton and picking it arbitrarily based on an a whim. I'm still going to wear the rose tinted glasses and believe that our beloved 90s era Honda did a lot of real testing to come up with their specs.
To Car Analogy's point in assuming Honda's R&D. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle of them experimenting a ton and picking it arbitrarily based on an a whim. I'm still going to wear the rose tinted glasses and believe that our beloved 90s era Honda did a lot of real testing to come up with their specs.
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