My roots in chassis stiffening
07-21-2011, 04:27 AM
#1
My roots in chassis stiffening
Over the past few months I have begun the process of stiffening the chassis of my S after a mishap that twisted my lower rear tie bar. Not that stiffening the chassis will prevent that but it got me back to thinking about how modification to my cars had started.
*Flashback*
Back when I was young (and maybe dumber then I am now) I didn't have a lot of money to modify my 1999 Honda Civic EX. I did work at a performance shop that tailored to trucks and american muscle but not imports at the time. I worked with our vendors as they import scene began to exploded to bring in new companies and then import car parts in to the store. All good stuff but alas i was still to poor to afford all the latest trick pieces from the best vendors even with the discount the shop gave me for working there. So I focused on what I could afford and would it provided any benefit. I would spend hours reading on this bar or that tire or that intake, etc etc... Bringing the pieces in as "evaluation" to look at them and asses the quality. Eventually I decided my best bang was to start stiffening the chassis after an exhaust and intake had made it's way on to the car... I got only the best I could afford and still maintained quality... the end result? A 1999 Honda Civic that in my opinion defied logic (at least to my friends)... The car was a corner carver in a sleepers appearance. Friend would follow me and try to keep up but failed to do so. I regularly heard (and knew) that most of the corners over 75deg I was picking up the inside rear tire and not just a bit. People who rode with me couldn't believe the cornering forces of the car and the weak link always seemed to be the tires. There is nothing like resting the car on it's bump stop with one tire in the air around an off ramp, with your foot still on the throttle and a grin from ear to ear, and passenger calling out for their deity
*Present*
So those emotions and benefits I have been overlooking with the rigid chassis of the S2000 began to make me wonder about the benefits of what is currently on the market and is it worth it? So the hunt began...
First I needed to replace the twisted piece of metal referred to as a lower tie brace... Unfortunate victim of poorly marked road construction and a low car...
But also is there any stiffening to be done that will make a noticeable improvement on a weekend fun car that isn't (currently) tracked?
What are my options, Comptech, ASM, Cusco, Spoon, and the list goes on and on... Read reviews and look at images and read some more... But only a few were "different" then the rest, they actually improved the bracing on the car... by tying into another point on the car... Beatrush and ASM.... ASM = WAY more money then I can spend... Beatrush a bit over what I wanted to spend but it offered and improvement just a bolt in stock type piece... and I found a write up on it on MotoIQ.com... http://www.motoiq.co...he-chassis.aspx
Hrmmm... That's the piece then... I ordered, 2 months later it arrives, 2 days later it is on the car.
Install was very easy, only needed the exploded diagram and 20mins later it is bolted on the car.
I can echo the MotoIQ.com assessment of the tie bar. It made a noticeable improvement in the way the back of the car reacted over bumps mid corner and the back felt more responsive then in the past... Happy with the purchase
Two weeks later though.. another unfortunate event with a crown in the road... It made a horrible sound as it dragged along the bottom of the car... I didn't even have the heart to crawl under and asses the damage... it would have to wait until I cooled down and got it on the stands... And to my amazement the bar minus some scrapes was not damaged in the least and I swear it protected the diff... I am even happier with this piece now.
Now what to do next to improve the chassis, Ladder bar? Front tie bar? Roll Bar? Fender Braces? Upper strut bar?
I took my next cue again from the MotoIQ article and began research on Fender Braces. I had just installed a Saner sway bar and experience with my Civic has told me stiff bars usually require chassis reinforcement to keep everything attached... The S has a strong solid mount but it lives at the end of the frame rails and frame rails can twist...
So who is out there and what do they offer? Again there is a slew of companies out there... But a few made an improvement over a 2pt connection... Some offered 3pt connections, hmmm interesting... I talk with co-worker on his thoughts on 2pt vs 3pt connection for stiffening and confirmed what I thought, 2pt is good if that is all you can do, 3pt is better because it limits deflection between the brace and the braced item in multiple planes... 3pt it is... Now to select a vendor.... Ooommmpphhh... Prices are steep for these pieces... But the Nagisa braces are in my price range and well I could find a review on them... and knew what to expect for the order... Order placed...
3 months later they are received, 2 days later they are installed on the car.
Install took about 2 hrs, only had to drill 4 holes, and re-align the doors. Only issue is relocating the washer fluid reservoir on the passenger side. The brace bolts into that location so it has to come out. They do supply a trick Nissan piece used way back, basically a bag with a washer motor in it
to replace it in the engine bay.
They do supply a bracket to install the bag which I used but this is what it looks like.
Initial impressions... Wow that made a difference for sure. Not only do the doors sound different closing, bumps that usually result in a rattle or creak on my daily drive no longer make a sound. Fast turn in feels much better and the car feels "stiffer" going over bumps and swells in the road.
Nice piece and it made an improvement for me. Next up is to verify the alignment of the car and select the next piece to continue the stiffening of the chassis....
So what next? Come winter I will probably pick up the remainder of the Beatrush Pieces for the underside of the car... and looking into a Hard Dog roll bar. So far I am happy with the stiffening adventure for the car. the outcome of the purchases had been positive and noticeable for me. Some of it may be SOTP and because I knew I did something to the car, but beyond that I am certain the car is better for the work.
So I ask, if any of you have installed stiffening pieces onto your S what is your impression? Was it worth the money? Do you wish you went with another company or style of the piece?
*Images linked from MotoIQ
*Flashback*
Back when I was young (and maybe dumber then I am now) I didn't have a lot of money to modify my 1999 Honda Civic EX. I did work at a performance shop that tailored to trucks and american muscle but not imports at the time. I worked with our vendors as they import scene began to exploded to bring in new companies and then import car parts in to the store. All good stuff but alas i was still to poor to afford all the latest trick pieces from the best vendors even with the discount the shop gave me for working there. So I focused on what I could afford and would it provided any benefit. I would spend hours reading on this bar or that tire or that intake, etc etc... Bringing the pieces in as "evaluation" to look at them and asses the quality. Eventually I decided my best bang was to start stiffening the chassis after an exhaust and intake had made it's way on to the car... I got only the best I could afford and still maintained quality... the end result? A 1999 Honda Civic that in my opinion defied logic (at least to my friends)... The car was a corner carver in a sleepers appearance. Friend would follow me and try to keep up but failed to do so. I regularly heard (and knew) that most of the corners over 75deg I was picking up the inside rear tire and not just a bit. People who rode with me couldn't believe the cornering forces of the car and the weak link always seemed to be the tires. There is nothing like resting the car on it's bump stop with one tire in the air around an off ramp, with your foot still on the throttle and a grin from ear to ear, and passenger calling out for their deity
*Present*
So those emotions and benefits I have been overlooking with the rigid chassis of the S2000 began to make me wonder about the benefits of what is currently on the market and is it worth it? So the hunt began...
First I needed to replace the twisted piece of metal referred to as a lower tie brace... Unfortunate victim of poorly marked road construction and a low car...
But also is there any stiffening to be done that will make a noticeable improvement on a weekend fun car that isn't (currently) tracked?
What are my options, Comptech, ASM, Cusco, Spoon, and the list goes on and on... Read reviews and look at images and read some more... But only a few were "different" then the rest, they actually improved the bracing on the car... by tying into another point on the car... Beatrush and ASM.... ASM = WAY more money then I can spend... Beatrush a bit over what I wanted to spend but it offered and improvement just a bolt in stock type piece... and I found a write up on it on MotoIQ.com... http://www.motoiq.co...he-chassis.aspx
Hrmmm... That's the piece then... I ordered, 2 months later it arrives, 2 days later it is on the car.
Install was very easy, only needed the exploded diagram and 20mins later it is bolted on the car.
I can echo the MotoIQ.com assessment of the tie bar. It made a noticeable improvement in the way the back of the car reacted over bumps mid corner and the back felt more responsive then in the past... Happy with the purchase
Two weeks later though.. another unfortunate event with a crown in the road... It made a horrible sound as it dragged along the bottom of the car... I didn't even have the heart to crawl under and asses the damage... it would have to wait until I cooled down and got it on the stands... And to my amazement the bar minus some scrapes was not damaged in the least and I swear it protected the diff... I am even happier with this piece now.
Now what to do next to improve the chassis, Ladder bar? Front tie bar? Roll Bar? Fender Braces? Upper strut bar?
I took my next cue again from the MotoIQ article and began research on Fender Braces. I had just installed a Saner sway bar and experience with my Civic has told me stiff bars usually require chassis reinforcement to keep everything attached... The S has a strong solid mount but it lives at the end of the frame rails and frame rails can twist...
So who is out there and what do they offer? Again there is a slew of companies out there... But a few made an improvement over a 2pt connection... Some offered 3pt connections, hmmm interesting... I talk with co-worker on his thoughts on 2pt vs 3pt connection for stiffening and confirmed what I thought, 2pt is good if that is all you can do, 3pt is better because it limits deflection between the brace and the braced item in multiple planes... 3pt it is... Now to select a vendor.... Ooommmpphhh... Prices are steep for these pieces... But the Nagisa braces are in my price range and well I could find a review on them... and knew what to expect for the order... Order placed...
3 months later they are received, 2 days later they are installed on the car.
Install took about 2 hrs, only had to drill 4 holes, and re-align the doors. Only issue is relocating the washer fluid reservoir on the passenger side. The brace bolts into that location so it has to come out. They do supply a trick Nissan piece used way back, basically a bag with a washer motor in it
to replace it in the engine bay.They do supply a bracket to install the bag which I used but this is what it looks like.
Initial impressions... Wow that made a difference for sure. Not only do the doors sound different closing, bumps that usually result in a rattle or creak on my daily drive no longer make a sound. Fast turn in feels much better and the car feels "stiffer" going over bumps and swells in the road.
Nice piece and it made an improvement for me. Next up is to verify the alignment of the car and select the next piece to continue the stiffening of the chassis....So what next? Come winter I will probably pick up the remainder of the Beatrush Pieces for the underside of the car... and looking into a Hard Dog roll bar. So far I am happy with the stiffening adventure for the car. the outcome of the purchases had been positive and noticeable for me. Some of it may be SOTP and because I knew I did something to the car, but beyond that I am certain the car is better for the work.
So I ask, if any of you have installed stiffening pieces onto your S what is your impression? Was it worth the money? Do you wish you went with another company or style of the piece?
*Images linked from MotoIQ
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s2krayz (02-11-2019)
07-21-2011, 06:22 AM
#2
Adding braces that you don't even know you need without having any way to attain objective results is a waste. You are basically just adding weight to your car (while removing it from your wallet).
The only real way to know whether you need additional bracing is to spend a LOT of time on a track with datalogging equipment, pyrometer, and plenty of knowledge about suspension tuning and tire wear.
The only real way to know whether you need additional bracing is to spend a LOT of time on a track with datalogging equipment, pyrometer, and plenty of knowledge about suspension tuning and tire wear.
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larry resnick (08-26-2020)
07-21-2011, 06:32 AM
#3
Agreed, I am not saying I need them nor the car does. Only looking at it as what I had done in the past and the improvements it made on my first car. I have researched the pieces before buying and so far every piece has made a difference does it mean I am shaving tenths or seconds off a lap time even with the added weight ? I wouldn't even attempt to guess or argue it is..
I don't track the car (yet, to tall to pass track inspections right now) but some day I would like too. But I do like to engage in spirited driving and have come to notice aspects of the cars handling that can be addressed both in power delivery and in handling. Power delivery is getting the best it can be NA, handling is improving. Right now it is more about making the car react consistent and linear vs abrupt IMO.
Certainly if I was turning it into a true racer I would be far from throwing parts at it without baselines to compare against. But for street use and fun, the car is moving in the right direction in getting better in the handling department with every part, even if it is minute and only under certain conditions, I am noticing.
I don't track the car (yet, to tall to pass track inspections right now) but some day I would like too. But I do like to engage in spirited driving and have come to notice aspects of the cars handling that can be addressed both in power delivery and in handling. Power delivery is getting the best it can be NA, handling is improving. Right now it is more about making the car react consistent and linear vs abrupt IMO.
Certainly if I was turning it into a true racer I would be far from throwing parts at it without baselines to compare against. But for street use and fun, the car is moving in the right direction in getting better in the handling department with every part, even if it is minute and only under certain conditions, I am noticing.
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MARK AUS S2K (10-12-2017)
07-21-2011, 08:06 AM
#6
One moment of inattention... Bad Spellers of the World Untie!!!I noticed it just driving casual to semi-aggressively so I am happy and looking forward to a canyon type drive this weekend to get a better feel.
07-21-2011, 08:49 AM
#7
I've been autocrossing and tracking Hondas since 1993, and have spent lots and lots of money on worthless aftermarket parts only to be slower. Unless an S2000 has been in a bad accident, the chassis is totally stiff enough for street tires. Even with the Uber-Performance street tires that people use for competition in STR don't cause any problematic chassis flexing. Keep in mind that it's so easy to make a car FEEL faster when you are really making it slower.
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07-21-2011, 09:14 AM
#8
Moderator
Its sounds like you need to raise the car a bit more than stiffen it any. If you can't even drive down the road w/o damaging/scraping... how low is it?
A car should be built for the roads it drives on.
A car should be built for the roads it drives on.
07-21-2011, 09:26 AM
#9
I have about a finger gap all around. So not slammed. It is actually fine for the roads i live on. the two scrapes were 1. in NC crossing some road construction on a blind crest that wasn't marked, the 2nd was a crown in my lane up in Maine that was hiding in the shadows on an otherwise pristine road.
07-21-2011, 02:34 PM
#10
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definitely concur that the beatrush bar made a noticable difference. the gladman front tower brace helps as well as well as the floor bars (cusco, asm) for the fore and aft rigidity. thanks for the write-up! I plan to get fender braces too shortly.