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NEW In-Cabin Subwoofer Install Location! Pics!

#1 User is offline   LATEOTT 

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 03:52 PM

Hi all, I found a different spot to locate an in-cabin subwoofer that takes up no useable storage space, and has zero impact on legroom.

THE SUB: JL Audio 6W0
Diameter: 6.5"
Free Air Resonance (Fs): 36.7 Hz
One-way, Linear Excursion (Xmax): 0.3 in
Effective Piston Area (Sd): 20.9 in2
Power Handling (continuous): 75W-100W
Power Handling (maximum): ~150W
Mounting Depth: 3.5 in
Mounting Hole Diameter: 5.625 in
Sealed Enclosure Volume: 0.175 ft3 (5.0 liters)
Driver Displacement: 0.019 ft3 (0.5 litres)

The sub is designed to deliver tight, low frequencies in a sealed or ported chamber. Beyond having great reviews, one of the most significant specs is the minimal volume required for the sealed chamber--about one and a half milk jugs. 5.5 liters including the driver displacement.

The only negative comments I have read are as follows (from people who have not heard them):
*A 6.5" speaker is not a subwoofer, it is a woofer. Dude, you need a 12 or 15" sub to hit low...(Mostly from guys in Camaros.) Fact: That's a myth. The frequency a speaker delivers has more to do with speaker design than to do with diameter (to a point, of course...).

*Well, no way a 6.5" sub would be loud enough
Fact 1: This could be true, depending on your needs. To make a lot of noise you need a lot of "piston" area (and displacement volume) to essentially move a lot of air. But better bass can often be achieved with a single or multiple, tight, smaller subwoofers than a single sloppy giant sub.
Fact 2: A trunk sub (or subS) needs to be loud to be heard inside the cabin. A sub in your lap does not need to be as loud as a sub in your trunk.
Fact 3: Musicality and loudness are different things entirely. If you are into sound-offs, you might take a different approach.


I had purchased a 6W0 and intended to install it in the passenger footwell ala MODIFRY or GamecockS2K/S2Kmugen, or some combination of the two. I really liked the creative use of space in these installs!

A more serious cut and paste to get a bigger sub deeper in the cabin (cut through the floor) was done by ws2000. Not for the faint of heart...

(THANKS TO ALL OF YOU GUYS FOR POSTING PHOTOS AND TECHNIQUES! Very helpful)

I had an aversion to cutting steel, and I really didn't want to lose ANY footspace (I have tall friends, and sometimes losing toespace is worse than losing legroom--since you can't orient your feet right unless you sit like an Egyptian...).

The passenger footwell presents a challenge because there is already a huge mechanical contraption down there...the A/C unit. So, I was going to remove the styrofoam footwedge and try to make a very creatively-shaped multichamber fiberglass box for the passenger footwell. Then I started poking around in the driver's footwell.

The place I found is actually in the driver cockpit, under the dash. It turns out there is a relatively HUGE (ah... in S2000 terms...) space up under the dash. Beyond that, there is hardly anything in the foreleg area, providing a location to build down from the dash as well.

To get an idea of the volume available sit in your car in the driving position. Now wave your hand around down by your forelegs (the part of your leg between your knee and your ankle.) See how much space is available? I'm 6' tall and can make my knees hit the dash, or the cowling uunder the steering wheel, or the wheel itself. But try as I might I cannot make my forelegs hit anything up under the dash.

Now look over at the passenger footwell. See how much of that space is occupied?

The challenge was creating a rigid shape that A) utilized the space, and B) could be put in and taken out of the space (it has to kind of be rotated up into there...)

There are two small relay blocks that need to be relocated from the right side of the steering column, but that is a piece of cake. Also I temporarily removed the black plastic footwell heater vent (revealing the magic Honda subwoofer mount hole...).

Speaker Testfit:
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MAKE A PLUG (this will be the shape of the completed chamber)
I tried to make a "plug" of the space up there by spraying Great Stuff expanding foam into a plastic bag. I made a mess and completely failed. It would have been great to have the car upside down for that...you never have a good rollover when you need one...

I ended up building a shape piece by piece with styrofoam and tape. Very laborious--tape a chunk on, test fit, look to where I could add more, tape a chunk on, test fit...and on and on and on. My girlfriend thought I was nuts (You are doing what?).

I had to be careful to not cover up the most import thing under the dash, the fusebox.

MEASURE THE VOLUME
Once I had a rigid shape, I tested the volume of the tape and styrofoam monstrosity by putting it in a plastic bag and submerging in a full-to-the-brim 5 gallon bucket of water. The water that dumps out exactly represents the volume of the shape. I simply measured the volume of water it took to refill the bucket to the brim. 2.5 gallons, should be fine when I need only 1.5 gallons internally, right? (not quite, I found out later.)

MAKE A MOLD FROM THE PLUG
Then I made a mold of the shape by putting it in a cardboard box and filling the box with expanding foam. When the foam cured I ripped the "plug" shape out of the mold.

"Plug" with Mold: The plug is in approximately the same vertical angle as installed, the whole thing is obviously angled to the right.
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MAKE A FIBERGLASS SUB CHAMBER FROM THE MOLD
With the mold available, I coated it with foil, sprayed an imaginary release agent (that didn't work in the least...) and started layering with fiberglass to build a shell. After a couple of layers I took the shell out of the mold to make it easier to work with...

Posted Image

PROVIDE A MOUNTING SURFACE FOR THE DRIVER
Folowing GamecockS2Ks lead, I cut a 2" section of 6" ABS pipe to make a rigid, flat mounting surface for the sub driver itself (He used part of a 6" PVC coupling). After a lot of test fitting I "glassed" in the pipe and continued adding layers.

This was actually a very difficult step. The chamber shape is completely ridiculously amorphous, but ends up fitting under the dash in a single orientation. The challenge here was to put the pipe in so that the final speaker orientation would be correct (i.e. slightly angled towards the cabin and not tilting one way or another.) Another challenge was basically suspending this pipe in the air using wet fiberglass...(Lots of cussing at this step.)

Posted Image

Fiberglass Testfit: You can see the mounting "pipe" and the attachment bolt. You can also see how I tried to shape around the fusebox.
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From the Back:
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Testfit from floor level: Remember your eyes will never be this low...!
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Testfit from passenger angle: Actually lower than passenger eyelevel.
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Testfit from left side:
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ADD TERMINALS, ADD A MOUNTING POINT
This is one of the most overlooked steps in building a sub chamber. Fortunately I had read that before I got to this point...Got to get the electrons in to make the speaker work...

I added RadioShack three-way binding posts. Again, I wanted to minimize loss of volume on the inside of the chamber. I drilled two holes, threaded the posts into the holes, secured them permanently with resin. I attached 12g wire leads on the inside with spades to connect to the speaker terminals later.

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It just so happens that hanging off the steering shaft carrier bearing is the perfect hole for attaching a sub. Solid steel. This is the place where the footwell heater vent attaches with a plastic plug. I used resin to secure a bracket with a nut. Later I would screw a bolt through the hole on the shaft, directly into the nut on the chamber. The heater vent I would deal with later.

CLOSE THE CHAMBER WITH A BAFFLE
Some people do this with MDF or plywood. I still was volume conscious and decided to continue with fiberglass--strength, with minimal thickness.

I formed a lip with clay, then built fiberglass over the clay lip. When, dry, I removed the clay and fiberglassed the remaining gap.

FINISH THE SURFACE
After a detour, I used Bondo to make a more finished surface for the visible part that stuck out from under the dash.

(My detour: When I did a volume check on the covered chamber I was 0.5 liter short, so I had to build an appendage to get more volume...)

CLEAN THE MOUNT
I had gotten resin and bondo on the pipe surface (a smarter person might have protected it in the first place...) so I used an inverted router bit in my drill to clean it off and re-square it.

PAINT THE BEAST
I chose a Krylon spray-on black rubber coating. I could have used vinyl I guess.

MOUNT THE SPEAKER
I attached the leads to the terminals and wrapped the wire in polyfill to prevent rattles. I used a small amount of silicon caulk to seal the mount (JL's are treated to resist the fumes) and screwed the speaker to the chamber.

The next few images have the brightness tweaked so we can see stuff. Please don't mind the wires, I had run temporary wires with the amp in the passenger seat for tuning. That is all cleaned up now.

From the Right:
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From the Right Higher up: It just disappears at normal eye level.
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From the drivers seat, below steering level: The binding posts are accessible through the removable panel.
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If I get a chance I will take a picture with my feet on the pedals. It's hard to tell but the chamber does not interfere with pedal operation in any way. (I think I cannot even touch it if I try.)

RESULTS
It sounds very, very nice. I use an XTANT 403a three-channel amp. The sub channel outputs 100W RMS. A wonderful feature of this amp is that it has adjustable INPUT sensitivity. Alpine HUs are known to undervolt the sub OUT. I can provide a 10dB boost this to get more headroom out of the amp (it's kind of a "pre-gain.)

Modern Alpine HU's (I have the 9833) have a subwoofer output/phase control available with one push of the volume knob. Most people need to use this at its max setting of 15. I listen from around 2 (want musicality) to 12+ (want thump, or higher speeds with top down). I set the crossovers to blend with my Polk components, adjusted time correction for the sub location and away we go.

With the sub essentially in my lap, the max volume is far more than I need.

I am still doing some RTA work to make fine adjustments, but I really enjoy the sound! It made a huge difference. :D

The sub is barely visible and I cannot make my body contact it in any way. Aside from some cosmetic imperfections which I can take care of later, I think it came out quite nicely. You can't tell it's there from the passenger seat, which has the best angle to look at it.

NOTE:
There is an unquantified risk with this setup--safety. The box is well-secured so it will never end up on the pedals. But this is a solid feature IN THE COCKPIT where there was space before. The S2000 is nearly perfectly designed to protect the driver in a collision, and I have made an alteration. In a major collision the chamber could do two things: 1) Shatter my tibias to toothpicks, or 2) Absorb energy and protect me. I don't know which, but I wanted others to be aware of this in case they decide to try it. For this reason (and weight) I will probably remove it for track days. And I will try to avoid head-ons.



I took pictures during the install and fabrication (this was my first time working with fiberglass). I will post them as soon as I get them uploaded. I'm a little embarrassed that the current semi-final box has some visible imperfections. I'll try to get over that... :o

This post has been edited by LATEOTT: 10 November 2004 - 06:09 PM


#2 User is offline   oatnet 

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 04:30 PM

Wow! Pictures Pictures Pictures!

-JD
Click here to see my "Banned" Signature

IF YOU HAVE SO MUCH AS UPGRADED THE FACTORY STEREO, YOUR EXTENDED WARRANTEE FROM HONDUHCARE IS WORTHLESS !!! Would You Like To Know More?

#3 User is offline   pikkashoe 

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 08:14 AM

Yes pictures pictures. I want to see this.
2003 Honda S2000
Fujitsubo w Megan Racing Test Pipe
Weapon R intake
Pioneer Premier 860 MP, CDT Eurosport ES-620's
Alpine MRV-545, SEAS Lotus 10"
18" SSR GT3's, Koni yellows with Ground Control

#4 User is offline   ideugene 

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 10:24 PM

ooo pictures please!

#5 User is offline   pierceman 

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 11:05 PM

PICSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
PLEASE
14' Evo X GSR
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Sold:
02 S2000, 02 Supercharged NSX, 89 S13 tracks, 05 STI

#6 User is offline   darkknight1999 

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 11:34 PM

Ok we're still waiting.... :tapsfingersontable:


Still waiting..... come on already.... DO IT!! GO AHEAD.. DO IT!! Post 'm up..




Us electronic junkies don't really care what the thing looks like, as all of us that started messing with ICE know that most of learning comes from trial and error ;) so don't worry about what it looks like... if your new to fiberglass and working with it, SO WHAT! at least you gave it a try... most people won't even try it ;)



SO POST THEM ALREADY!!!!
JOHN
"Pumping lots of bass to a tweeter is like stuffing a basketball into a pigeon... neither will survive"

"So yeah... if you're not going to do a job right, either because you're just to damn lazy or you're don't know how... then yeah, don't touch it, because then someone has to clean up the freaking mess you made." - ME!

Posted ImagePosted Image

#7 User is offline   ws2000 

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 04:08 PM

Sounds interesting.

How about some pics? :D

#8 User is offline   LATEOTT 

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:14 PM

I added some in-progress photos that I had on my laptop. I just pasted them into the original post.

I'll put the "finished" photos up later--they are still on my camera.

Let me know if you get red x's.

I might need some help later to make the image links more permanent--anybody got space to spare?

Thanks for your patience!

#9 User is offline   ideugene 

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:43 PM

all i see are red x's... if you send them to me i'll host them

#10 User is offline   LATEOTT 

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 04:06 AM

Quote

all i see are red x's... if you send them to me i'll host them

Okay, thanks. Would you mind PMing your email?

Or else, you might be able to get them directly if you go to the link below.

I'll keep trying, but if anyone wants to look or download they can go here while we figure things out:

Subwoofer Pictures


Yahoo is making me jump through some miserable hoops to link photos... :banghead:

#11 User is offline   psycho_s2000 

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 10:18 AM

wow looks great, i'de like to see some pics of it out of the car

#12 User is offline   ideugene 

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:47 AM












#13 User is offline   AmazinglySmooth 

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:08 PM

It does look very nice, but as you pointed out it is a bit of a safety hazard. Of course, most of us probably remember riding around on the rear-window speaker deck of our dad's Oldsmobile when we were younger. I definitely don't think it is that dangerous. As a comparison, some newer family vehicles come with an airbag right where you put a giant hard surface. Without regard to safety, however, it is a perfect location.

Cheers

#14 User is offline   pikkashoe 

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 06:03 PM

wow very nice and very innovative.

looks like a lot of work though, but its great. mass production? lol



#15 User is offline   oatnet 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 02:26 AM

Looks great when painted but here I keep on picturing the set of Buckaroo Bonzia! (great movie)

Posted Image


#16 User is offline   dierk 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 09:08 AM

Thanks for the inside look at your install.

I want to glass in the spare tire cavity. I was hoping to fill a plastic bag with Great Stuff to make a plug but you had problems doing this. Did the problems have more to do with working upside down? Is there any other reason the Great Stuff/plastic bag approach shouldn't work?

I'm also wondering why the mold from the plug. Can't I just wrap matt soaked in resin around the plug? Anyway, you have me rethinking this part and that's a good thing.

Thanks again for the detailed and helpful information.
Credo quia absurdum est

#17 User is offline   LATEOTT 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 01:56 PM

Quote

Thanks for the inside look at your install.

I want to glass in the spare tire cavity. I was hoping to fill a plastic bag with Great Stuff to make a plug but you had problems doing this. Did the problems have more to do with working upside down? Is there any other reason the Great Stuff/plastic bag approach shouldn't work?

I'm also wondering why the mold from the plug. Can't I just wrap matt soaked in resin around the plug? Anyway, you have me rethinking this part and that's a good thing.

Thanks again for the detailed and helpful information.

dierk, thanks for the feedback and great questions.

As far as the Great Stuff goes I think there were two problems.

One was gravity. I had completely lined that cavity with plastic bags, but they didn't exactly "cling" to the outlines of the underdash cavity--they were only attached at all the points I taped them. They would have needed "pressure" from the foam expansion to fill all of the voids and fill that space properly. Then, the foam would not stick to the inverted plastic bags. Some would shoot out of the nozzle, temperarily stick to the plastic, then roll off down my arm. :banghead:

Two was expansion and curing in a plastic bag. I think that particular foam needs air and moisture to expand and cure, and it doens't work very well in a plastic bag. I think that when I pulled those goopy, messy bags out of my car they took DAYS to cure and they never really expanded much. But you can see it worked just fine in the cardboard box when I made the mold.

You might have more success in a more open, less inverted cavity like the spare area. If you did it in 2-4 inch thick layers it might help too. Make sure you protect everything very well. That goo sticks to EVERYTHING (except inverted plastic bags...) and cannot be removed without agony, pain and cursing.

Another thing I looked into were something called InstaPack Quick LINK. They are expandable foam shipping packs, and they are completely self-contained. You activate them and throw them in a box with whatever you are shipping and they expand to fill the voids (you probably have recieved those before in shipments.) I was thinking of getting a few of those, putting them up there, letting them cure and bingo. The reason I didn't was that I couldn't buy less than an entire case of them, plus they were expensive, plus I didn't want to wait. ;) You might be able to order them from Office Max or something. (Or talk to your friendly shipping/recieving guy...)

Regarding the mold from the plug. This is a VERY important point and an excellent question. If you just make a plug that fits the shape of your cavity, THEN fiberglass around it, you will make a chamber that is slightly LARGER than the cavity for which it is intended. And your chamber will be completely rigid and noncompressible. It won't fit. Even though fiberglass can be much more thin than wood, if it is a custom fit situation, even an eighth- or quarter-inch thick fiberglass shell will be too much. You could try to be shy on the dimensions of your plug, but you would have to make a pretty good guess.

Good luck!



#18 User is offline   LATEOTT 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 02:05 PM

ideugene,
Thank you so much for your help with the images! Yahoo and Geocities were driving me NUTS! I appreciate your help. :thumbup:

pikkashoe and Smooth,
Thanks for the feedback. I had thoughts of making a better mold from the final chamber so I could kick out a few more of these. It's funny though, after all the hours of cutting and pasting and filing and gluing when I got towards the end all I was thinking about was getting finished! :D I suppose that is still poassible to de-install it and make a mold, but...

Psycho,
Yeah, I wish I would have taken some pictures of it out of the car... Next time I take it out I will do so.

Oatnet,
Yep!
"No matter where you go, there you are..." :thumbup:



#19 User is offline   ws2000 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 03:15 PM

Looks good! Wish I could hear it.

I'd be a bit nervous without a grille on the sub - you as the driver know that it's there, but if the car ever makes it in for service work at the dealership, I can bet the technician would find a way to plant a foot in the sub!

#20 User is offline   LATEOTT 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 04:39 PM

Quote

Looks good! Wish I could hear it.

I'd be a bit nervous without a grille on the sub - you as the driver know that it's there, but if the car ever makes it in for service work at the dealership, I can bet the technician would find a way to plant a foot in the sub!

Thanks ws2000! I enjoyed seeing the photos of your "surgery" as well. Pretty adventurous!

Excellent point about service techs. :eek: I'll have to keep that in mind. Maybe cover it with something rigid...

#21 User is offline   darkknight1999 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 04:43 PM

[QUOTE=dierk,Nov 11 2004, 09:08 AM] Thanks for the inside look at your install.

#22 User is offline   s2l 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 11:29 PM

Thats awesome!

#23 User is offline   dierk 

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 11:41 PM

Quote

... and it sounds like in your situation you haven't...
I have detailed instructions on how to make a fiberglass encloser if anyone needs it...


darkknight1999,

Yes, this will be my first fiberglass project but I'm determined to succeed. If you have detailed instructions, I (and probably others on this forum) would be very happy to see them.

Thanks for your input.

#24 User is offline   S2K4Joe 

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 07:31 PM

"The only negative comments I have read are as follows (from people who have not heard them):
*A 6.5" speaker is not a subwoofer, it is a woofer. Dude, you need a 12 or 15" sub to hit low...(Mostly from guys in Camaros.) Fact: That's a myth. The frequency a speaker delivers has more to do with speaker design than to do with diameter (to a point, of course...).

*Well, no way a 6.5" sub would be loud enough
Fact 1: This could be true, depending on your needs. To make a lot of noise you need a lot of "piston" area (and displacement volume) to essentially move a lot of air. But better bass can often be achieved with a single or multiple, tight, smaller subwoofers than a single sloppy giant sub.
Fact 2: A trunk sub (or subS) needs to be loud to be heard inside the cabin. A sub in your lap does not need to be as loud as a sub in your trunk.
Fact 3: Musicality and loudness are different things entirely. If you are into sound-offs, you might take a different approach."


I can attest to this. I use the Focal 5kx subs flush mounted in my floorboards on driver and passenger side of my competition car (not in an S2000, check signature).

There is nothing like upfront bass!!!!

By the way, great job!! Very innovative use of space.

This post has been edited by S2K4Joe: 12 November 2004 - 07:33 PM

2004 Silverstone Honda S2000
Completely Stock (Sold but not forgotten)

1997 San Marino Red Honda Prelude
VIS, Wings West, TenzoR, Ground Control, DC Sports, Cascade Audio Engineering, Stinger, Kenwood, Focal, Rockford Fosgate
2 time United States Autosound Competition Association World Champion (Sold)

2005 Dodge Viper
2007 Land Rover Range Rover
1989 Chevrolet Corvette

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