mikegarrison

Accusump is a pressurized reserve oil supply located away from the engine. It is inline with the stock oil system.

Dry sump is an unpressurized oil supply located away from the engine. It replaces the stock oil system.

mikegarrison

Fatigue analysis is very tricky. It doesn't always work the way it seems like it would.

INTJ

Back to the original point...where are the failures??? My manzier is just as effective a safety product as 6 inline accusumps, or a $3,000 drysump for that matter.

Certain cars have a significant problem with the pickup location and design (944...), but I haven't seen any rel evidence that this is a failure mode for our engine.

maxrev

Trace Sports has pretty decent data on baffled oil pan on a K engine. Note: I can see that a baffled oilpan could be more effective on a K series engine (FF) instead of our FC (FR).

Tracy Sports states that a drop in the oil pressure below 1.5kg-cm2 could cause damage to a K motor in the "DC5 Integra Type R One Make Race" cars.

Note: "DC5 Integra Type R One Make Race" is a race series in Japan which is sponsored by Honda. The cars are based on production model with very minimal modifications. I believe some cars are even street driven.

Honda DC5 One Make Race
DC5 Type R Pictures


Looks like they make their own modifications to an existing mugen baffled oil-pan to further enhancements.

Tracy Sports Page

Rough Summary:
There are many oil driven components in a Honda motor when compared to other manufactures. (VTEC, VTC). The K motor needs 4.7L of oil during an oil change with a new filter but it states that the motor actually needs 5.8L of oil to operate due to the oil inside the head and various lines. They have seen the VTEC system not engaging properly due oil starvation from a high lateral g's in a corner.

The K20 engine normally operates at 5 to 5.8kgf/cm2 of oil presure. The VTEC stops operating at 2.5kgf/cm2 and anything below 1.5kgf/cm2 would cause damage to the motor.

They urge to check the accuracy of their oil pressure gauges as it only takes a split seconds of loss in oil pressure to damage internal components.

Tracy Sports uses a data-logger to review their oil pressure during a sprint race.


Orange: RPM
Green: Throttle
Pink: Oil Pressure


Car: DC5 R - One Make Qualify Race
1. Oil Pressure: 5 to 5.2 kgf/cm2
2. Max G: Oil Pressure Drops to 2.9kg/cm2
3. Recovers to 5 to 5.2kg/cm2

Duration of 1, 2, 3 is about 2.9 seconds. Notes: Most after-market gauge will only show a movement in the needle. It claims that a good baffled oilpan will keep the drop in the oil pressure to a minimum and lets the oil return to the bottom of the pan. However, too much baffling will also cause the oil to take more time in returning to the bottom of the pan.



Right: OEM Rod Bearing: NEW

Middle: OEM Rod Bearing with Baffled Oil after 3000km Track Usage

Left: OEM Rod Bearing: Customer Car with Track / AutoX use with out Baffled Oilpan

Note: I can see that they have created the webpage to support their products.

I would say that a FC engines may not need a baffled oil pan, especially if your on street tires or R compounds on stock suspension.

If your street car is modified with wing, suspension and wide R compound tires (255+), then it would be a safer bet to get one. This is what I did as I like to keep things simple and functional.

If you drive a race car, then get a different system like an accusump.

mikegarrison

That's the kind of data I was thinking of, but there are three problems with it.

1) not our car (which you mentioned)

2) not independent of the people selling the product (which you mentioned)

3) just shows the problem but does not show that the pan solves it (which is the heart of my concern)

maxrev

I agree with you there.

The only real solution is to get a different system like an accusump.
I think it shows that a well designed pan will allow two things.

1) Keeps the pressure drop to a min.
2) Lets the oil get back to the pan w/o too much resistance.

Thats what I got out of it.

I don't intend on running a system like a accusmp on my car. My car is a full street car that I use to commute to work and running all the lines along with mounting the hardware is just too much for my use.

I say.. keep checking your oil after each session and get a pan if you think mugen or other manufactures uses them in races for a reason.

mikegarrison

Yeah, but they don't make parts to race cars with -- they race cars to sell parts. I'm very suspicious of the "they use them on race cars so it must be effective" argument, especially when the race cars are operated by the parts manufacturers.

I've seen what happens when accusumps leak, and I wouldn't want that in my street car either.

cthree

Yeah, it's a no-win. A dry sump you don't want and the only real advantage is that it allows you to lower the engine by abou the height of the pan. That's not easy to do in an S2000 especially when you consider the transmission bell housing mounts to it at the bottom.

Accusumps I've heard can leak which is a hell of a mess to clean up, perhaps impossible in a street car.

Your only real option is a J's or Spoon or similar pan but for a street car you probably won't get anything for the trouble.

Jaku

http://www.nengun.com/spoon/baffle-oil-pan

this place sells cheap Spoon oil pan for some reason

alejo

paid about 250 for my mugen