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STR Prep - Shock / Damper and Springs Discussion SCCA Autocross STR Class

Poll: STR Prep - Shock / Damper and Springs Discussion (121 member(s) have cast votes)

What brand of shocks do you use?

  1. Penske (17 votes [14.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.05%

  2. Moton (10 votes [8.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.26%

  3. AST (6 votes [4.96%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.96%

  4. Ohlins (11 votes [9.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  5. JRZ (8 votes [6.61%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.61%

  6. Sachs (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. Koni Yellow (Sport) (21 votes [17.36%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.36%

  8. Bilstein (5 votes [4.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.13%

  9. KW (11 votes [9.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  10. Tein (5 votes [4.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.13%

  11. Other (26 votes [21.49%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.49%

  12. Koni Mono Tube (1 votes [0.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.83%

What FRONT spring rates do you use?

  1. 1,000 lbs/in (6 votes [5.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.88%

  2. 950 lbs/in (1 votes [0.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  3. 900 lbs/in (14 votes [13.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.73%

  4. 850 lbs/in (8 votes [7.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.84%

  5. 800 lbs/in (10 votes [9.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.80%

  6. 750 lbs/in (10 votes [9.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.80%

  7. 700 lbs/in (17 votes [16.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  8. 650 lbs/in (5 votes [4.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.90%

  9. 600 lbs/in (3 votes [2.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.94%

  10. 550 lbs/in (14 votes [13.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.73%

  11. 500 lbs/in (4 votes [3.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.92%

  12. 450 lbs/in (1 votes [0.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  13. 400 lbs/in (1 votes [0.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  14. other (8 votes [7.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.84%

What REAR spring rates do you use?

  1. 1,000 lbs/in (2 votes [1.96%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.96%

  2. 950 lbs/in (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 900 lbs/in (8 votes [7.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.84%

  4. 850 lbs/in (3 votes [2.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.94%

  5. 800 lbs/in (11 votes [10.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.78%

  6. 750 lbs/in (7 votes [6.86%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.86%

  7. 700 lbs/in (9 votes [8.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.82%

  8. 650 lbs/in (9 votes [8.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.82%

  9. 600 lbs/in (12 votes [11.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

  10. 550 lbs/in (14 votes [13.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.73%

  11. 500 lbs/in (9 votes [8.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.82%

  12. 450 lbs/in (5 votes [4.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.90%

  13. 400 lbs/in (5 votes [4.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.90%

  14. other (8 votes [7.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.84%

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#51 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 09:42 PM

View Postzo7vette, on 14 November 2011 - 08:47 PM, said:

Shocks: Penske 8300 Double Adjustable
Shock Body Length (lower bolt center to top of body/shaft bearing): Front = TBD " --- Rear = 10.25"
Valving: PSI spec

Springs: Eibach 6" 800/700 Have 8" fronts and 7" rears coming. 6" with stock top hats is way to short, learned this the hard way.

Car: 2008 S2000 White with Red leather

Ride height: I measure from bottom of rim to fender edge. 21 7/8" Front 22 1/8" Rear. I don't know how you guys stay consistant from the hub center.
Tires: 255 square Dunlop Star Specs for the cold months, then will switch to RS3's when it warms up.
Wheels: TSW Nurburgring 17x9 63mm
Pressures: 36F 26R
Alignment: -2.5 Front, 0 toe, -2.5 Rear, 1/4" total toe in.

Front Sway bar: Eibach, set on its stiff setting
Rear Sway bar: Stock '08


Thanks for sharing. Have you done much tire pressure testing? In my experience 26 seems way too low.

Also, in terms of the ride height, I came to the same conclusion you did so I measure to the top rim edge then add 9.25 (my 17x9 6ULRs are 18.5" diameter at the rim lip edges) to get a distance to the center of the wheel. Do you mind measuring your wheel diameter? I'm always curious about other people running penskes and what ride heights they're able to get, especially since you have the same spring rates as me. I'm currently on no rear bar though, and I'm thinking about adding one now that my alignment's finally sorted out.
-Jon Caserta
*2006 Laguna Blue S2000 - #8 or 183 STR

My STR S2000 blog with Tech info and STR guide

#52 User is offline   oinojo 

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 09:55 PM

updated: 11/14/2011

Shocks: Penske 8300
Shock Body Length: Front = TBD " --- Rear = 11.25"
Valving: Custom
Pistons: Front Compression - Linear
Front Rebound - Linear
Rear Compression - Linear
Rear Rebound - Linear

Springs: Hyperco 7" 1000 Front / 6" 800 Rear
Sway: Ankeny Dual Blade 1.25 .250" hollow/ (MY06) rear bar
Car: 2006 S2000 AP2

Ride height: 12.75"f/12.50"r hub center to metal fender edge
Tires: 255/40R17 Dunlop z1 star spec
Wheels: TR Motorsport 17x9 +62

This post has been edited by oinojo: 13 March 2012 - 01:04 AM

2012 SCCA Solo STR National Champion
2013 SCCA ProSolo STR Champion
- Jonathan Lugod

#53 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 02:14 PM

Does anyone know the weight of the stock shocks? I weighted my shocks today and they are quiet heavy.

fronts-
Posted Image

Rears-
Posted Image

this is with springs,helpers and tophats on them. I'm debating lossing the helpers in the front, shorter springs front and rear, and the weight savings from cutting down the rears to help get it down some. Anyone else weight their shocks with spring, tophats, and everything else on them?

This post has been edited by josh7owens: 15 November 2011 - 02:19 PM

Posted Image Posted Image
08 Apex Blue CR- (STR PREPPED) Triple Adj JRZ Shocks, Dual Ball Bearing Bars, J's camber Joints, K&N Intake, Toda Header, Berk HFC, T1R 70em exhaust, Flashpro, Recaro SPG, Innovative 75a MM, Challange SS brake lines, GoPro Hero 3
00 BB S2000- Daily Driver

#54 User is offline   zo7vette 

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:39 AM

View Postjosh7owens, on 15 November 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

Does anyone know the weight of the stock shocks? I weighted my shocks today and they are quiet heavy.

fronts-
Posted Image

Rears-
Posted Image

this is with springs,helpers and tophats on them. I'm debating lossing the helpers in the front, shorter springs front and rear, and the weight savings from cutting down the rears to help get it down some. Anyone else weight their shocks with spring, tophats, and everything else on them?


Stock front shock with spring is 9.6lbs and the rear with spring is 10.8lbs. I didn't weigh them with the stock top hats, I used them with my Penske's, and I was only looking at weight saved, which in my case will be just under 14lbs.
Jeff Cawthorne

'08 S2000 White/Red Daily Driver and STR Racer #6

#55 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:31 AM

Wonder why my jrzs are such pigs? It must be from the huge piston size and such. Hmm

#56 User is offline   Johnx 

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:40 AM

My Penske 7500 da set of four weighs 18 lbs with springs and helpers (no top hats).

#57 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 02:56 PM

:(

#58 User is offline   RavynX 

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 04:24 PM

Shocks: Moton Club Sports
Valving: Factory

Springs...
Front: Hyperco 6", 2.25" ID, 850 lbs (15k)
Rear: Hyperco 7", 2.25" ID, 700 lbs (12.5k)
Eibach helper springs on all corners

Car: 2006 S2000 AP2

Ride height: 12.5"f/12.75"r hub center to metal fender edge
Tires: 255 Dunlop Star Specs all around. May be going to RS3s soon.
Wheels: 949 Racing 6ULR 17x9, +63 offset

#59 User is offline   CoolGuy094 

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 02:56 PM

Question: My car is currently sitting at 13.5" ride height from hub center to unrolled metal fender edge on all four corners. It looks like most you guys are landing somewhere between 12-13 with a quarter-inch lower bias in the front. Is 13.5" too high? Should I go ahead and lower the rear 1/2" and the front 3/4"? What is the stock ride height when measured this way?

My main concern when I raised it last time was that my newly installed exhaust was scraping my driveway when pulling in. The car was relatively slammed before, so I tried to raise it to the 12-13" range, but apparantly overshot. I don't want to lower to the point that I scrape again.
Posted Image
RIP Josh Messerschmidt

#60 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 04:00 PM

If your car is a ap1 you need to be in the 12.5-.75 range in the rear because anything above that the car would toe out under de-compression/compression. This causes a loose rear end. On a ap2 you lower to that point for the low center of gravity.

#61 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 07:21 PM

I have my AP2 at 13.25", maybe 13.1 in the front, it works great. I might lower it a little under another 1/4" or so before next season. It's a good compromise for me. When I had it at 12.75" I was having problems with rubbing - I have lower rate springs and sway bars than some on here. Also my rear shocks were very close to bottoming out.

That extra 0.25-0.5 inch will not cause a large change in center of gravity. There might be some merit to the AP1 suspension geometry argument but I don't know since I have an AP2.

#62 User is offline   Random1 

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 07:49 PM

View PostCoolGuy094, on 27 November 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

Question: My car is currently sitting at 13.5" ride height from hub center to unrolled metal fender edge on all four corners. It looks like most you guys are landing somewhere between 12-13 with a quarter-inch lower bias in the front. Is 13.5" too high? Should I go ahead and lower the rear 1/2" and the front 3/4"? What is the stock ride height when measured this way?

My main concern when I raised it last time was that my newly installed exhaust was scraping my driveway when pulling in. The car was relatively slammed before, so I tried to raise it to the 12-13" range, but apparantly overshot. I don't want to lower to the point that I scrape again.

I don't know what the stock ride height is and would also like to know.

As for front vs rear ride height, that controls rake which can have an affect on front to rear balance (weight transfer under acceleration and braking). This is something that you should try in a few different configurations to see how you like it. 1/4" to 1/2" difference would be good for noticing a difference.

Front > Rear
Front < Rear
Front = Rear

This is where knowing the stock rake would be a good reference.
Rob Rockefeller
#180 STR

Posted Image

Random1Racing.comMy S2000 Page

#63 User is offline   nmrado 

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:45 PM

Stock average ride height was 14-1/8" on my car. The individual corner measurements fluctuated within ~3/16" of that number. There was no rake to my stock ride height. Depending on bushing preload, corner weights, etc., everyone's stock measurements will vary slightly.
Jake D - Rio Grande Region SCCA
#53/153 '00 S2k STR
#53/153 '06 Elise SS

#64 User is offline   zo7vette 

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:51 PM

How do you measure droop? How much droop should we have? Do we jack the car up from the sides, or from the center of the front and rear? Sway bars connected or disconnected?

Jeff

#65 User is offline   berny2435 

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 06:32 PM

View Postzo7vette, on 30 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

How do you measure droop? How much droop should we have? Do we jack the car up from the sides, or from the center of the front and rear? Sway bars connected or disconnected?

Jeff


ahhh the mysterious droop question arises. Your actual Droop could be most easily measured at the shock with everything on the car, referencing from the shock top spring perch or top hat or the car's sheet metal shock mounting area. could also eyeball it from the top of the tire to the fender as you raise the car up. Special sensors can be purchased here and elsewhere for precise data. http://www.advantage...com/Sensors.htm

I honestly don't know how much you really need with any given shock/spring/swaybar combination. It all varries on grip level and road conditions. But I do know that not enough droop can definitely cause the inside rear to light up.

how stiff have you already made the vehicle? Stiffer you go, the less droop travel you typically need unless you drive on really bumpy tracks and daily drive. If you are running the rear with the stiff OEM swaybar, you likely don't max out your shock droop travel before your swaybar stops the suspension from drooping further
06' SSM AP2 - SOLD
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#66 User is offline   zo7vette 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:51 AM

View Postberny2435, on 30 November 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

View Postzo7vette, on 30 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

How do you measure droop? How much droop should we have? Do we jack the car up from the sides, or from the center of the front and rear? Sway bars connected or disconnected?

Jeff


ahhh the mysterious droop question arises. Your actual Droop could be most easily measured at the shock with everything on the car, referencing from the shock top spring perch or top hat or the car's sheet metal shock mounting area. could also eyeball it from the top of the tire to the fender as you raise the car up. Special sensors can be purchased here and elsewhere for precise data. http://www.advantage...com/Sensors.htm

I honestly don't know how much you really need with any given shock/spring/swaybar combination. It all varries on grip level and road conditions. But I do know that not enough droop can definitely cause the inside rear to light up.

how stiff have you already made the vehicle? Stiffer you go, the less droop travel you typically need unless you drive on really bumpy tracks and daily drive. If you are running the rear with the stiff OEM swaybar, you likely don't max out your shock droop travel before your swaybar stops the suspension from drooping further


This is the reason for my question. I see daylight under that rear tire, and the front tire appears to be lifting off the ground. And when I jack up the car, the wheels come off the ground very quickly.

Posted Image

#67 User is offline   Random1 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 02:19 AM

View Postzo7vette, on 01 December 2011 - 01:51 AM, said:

View Postberny2435, on 30 November 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

View Postzo7vette, on 30 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

How do you measure droop? How much droop should we have? Do we jack the car up from the sides, or from the center of the front and rear? Sway bars connected or disconnected?

Jeff


ahhh the mysterious droop question arises. Your actual Droop could be most easily measured at the shock with everything on the car, referencing from the shock top spring perch or top hat or the car's sheet metal shock mounting area. could also eyeball it from the top of the tire to the fender as you raise the car up. Special sensors can be purchased here and elsewhere for precise data. http://www.advantage...com/Sensors.htm

I honestly don't know how much you really need with any given shock/spring/swaybar combination. It all varries on grip level and road conditions. But I do know that not enough droop can definitely cause the inside rear to light up.

how stiff have you already made the vehicle? Stiffer you go, the less droop travel you typically need unless you drive on really bumpy tracks and daily drive. If you are running the rear with the stiff OEM swaybar, you likely don't max out your shock droop travel before your swaybar stops the suspension from drooping further


This is the reason for my question. I see daylight under that rear tire, and the front tire appears to be lifting off the ground. And when I jack up the car, the wheels come off the ground very quickly.

Posted Image

Too much rebound can also cause this under a dynamic situation. I know when I jack my car up you can see the wheels fall after the car is up in the air. This is caused by the low speed rebound bleed of the shock.

The bleed hole seen in this photo and the rebound adjuster control the low speed bleed rate for my 8100s. Your 8300s may not have a bleed hole on the pistons for rebound, so the slow droop of the wheel should be most influenced by your rebound adjuster.
Posted Image

Have you gone to full soft (minus 3 turns from all the way closed or full stiff) on the rear rebound? Do you have the shock dyno plots for your shocks? If you measure from hub center to metal fender edge (while jacked up) for the rear I can do the same on my car for comparison. I have never had inside wheel spin when setup for STR.

#68 User is offline   dnace 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:00 PM

I am going a different route then everyone on springs.

Stance GR+2way coilovers

Running 11k-f/13k-r at the moment. I just didn't like the understeer the other way. Been trying to trend towards the .5 lateral force balance calc.

Car had quick turn in with very little steering input and had controllable throttle over steer and great low speed initial turn in.

Eric stemler is really pushing me to try 13k-f/18k-r (about 720lb/1000lb) Would put me at .5 with my settings. Might be a little "too fun" for most, but I am willing to give it a try, since I love to try settings.

#69 User is offline   daverx7 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:39 PM

View Postdnace, on 01 December 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

I am going a different route then everyone on springs.

I love it when people try something way different than the norm. I went the total opposite direction than you are heading and it works great.... umm... But, I don't count what happened at the last event. LOL

-D
Posted Image

#70 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 05:20 PM

View Postdnace, on 01 December 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

I am going a different route then everyone on springs.

Stance GR+2way coilovers

Running 11k-f/13k-r at the moment. I just didn't like the understeer the other way. Been trying to trend towards the .5 lateral force balance calc.

Car had quick turn in with very little steering input and had controllable throttle over steer and great low speed initial turn in.

Eric stemler is really pushing me to try 13k-f/18k-r (about 720lb/1000lb) Would put me at .5 with my settings. Might be a little "too fun" for most, but I am willing to give it a try, since I love to try settings.



what is this? explain please.

#71 User is offline   nmrado 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 06:31 PM

Sounds like he's shooting for an even front:rear roll stiffness ratio.

#72 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 08:51 PM

Alignment makes a huge difference to front/rear balance. I'm gonna need to go way softer now up front than I did with my previous alignment. Here's a picture: Posted Image

#73 User is offline   oinojo 

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 09:43 PM

Jon what is your alignment? I think you meant to say you now need softer front springs with your current alignment? Care to expand on this? I also dont see a problem with lifting a tire unless it is happening at every entry.

#74 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 12:02 AM

Well that by itself isn't a problem but it's indicative of the fact that it's understeer city right now.

Alignment is something along the lines of 3 degrees camber in front, 2.8 in rear, 0 toe front, between 3/16 and 1/4 inch rear toe. Before I had a lot less rear camber but otherwise the same. Changing the rear camber transformed the car.

#75 User is offline   oinojo 

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:09 AM

View PostIntegraR0064, on 04 December 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

Well that by itself isn't a problem but it's indicative of the fact that it's understeer city right now.

Alignment is something along the lines of 3 degrees camber in front, 2.8 in rear, 0 toe front, between 3/16 and 1/4 inch rear toe. Before I had a lot less rear camber but otherwise the same. Changing the rear camber transformed the car.


where are you on your front bar? does the understeer only happen during steady state sweepers? if so i would try and soften the front bar first.

This post has been edited by oinojo: 04 December 2011 - 02:09 AM


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