1:40.6 at Winton!
04-21-2005, 02:41 AM
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Hi David, that's really great. How much did the data-logger cost?
It's not mine, but it cots around $1500. Not cheap, but the info that you get from it is pretty amazing and worth more than any mods you can put on the car.
I'll be really interested to see the same results from Phillip Island.
I have not had the car at the Island yet ... probably a bit later in the year.
I'd love to get someone else's data from Winton (and preferably in a different car) as that would be great to see mapped against my car.
That is sensational. Mind you, there are things I'd probably rather not know.
Nothing to worry about for you ... afterall, aren't you in like 1:35s ... not many cars/people that quick.
It's not mine, but it cots around $1500. Not cheap, but the info that you get from it is pretty amazing and worth more than any mods you can put on the car.
I'll be really interested to see the same results from Phillip Island.
I have not had the car at the Island yet ... probably a bit later in the year.
I'd love to get someone else's data from Winton (and preferably in a different car) as that would be great to see mapped against my car.
That is sensational. Mind you, there are things I'd probably rather not know.
Nothing to worry about for you ... afterall, aren't you in like 1:35s ... not many cars/people that quick.
04-21-2005, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidM,Apr 21 2005, 08:41 PM
That is sensational. Mind you, there are things I'd probably rather not know.
Nothing to worry about for you ... afterall, aren't you in like 1:35s ... not many cars/people that quick.
Nothing to worry about for you ... afterall, aren't you in like 1:35s ... not many cars/people that quick.
04-21-2005, 03:55 AM
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What's the name of this gizmo, and where can you buy one?
DL1 Data logger is what the device is ... it's a GPS with a recorder and G-sensors.
I know the person selling them localy (ie. in Melbourne), so if you're interested I'll put you in touch with him ... might even save you a couple of Dollars of you mention my name ;-)
DL1 Data logger is what the device is ... it's a GPS with a recorder and G-sensors.
I know the person selling them localy (ie. in Melbourne), so if you're interested I'll put you in touch with him ... might even save you a couple of Dollars of you mention my name ;-)
04-21-2005, 06:49 PM
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Hi David, That's a good lap time. Just looking at the charts and striving to find a few fractions improvements here and there I'd make the following comments.
I see you were forced to change gears just before the end of the two back straights. That's a nuisance that detracts from lap times. I guess the professional teams solve that problem by altering gear/diff ratios for Winton. I always thought that an S2000 would do better with a Higher diff ratio at winton. Not much we can do about this though.
Also looking at the charts it seems you were braking hard at the last minute and using the slow-in fast-out technique. Is that right?
You're doing well through turns 1 & 2 and the sweeper. However after rocketing out of the sweeper & following kink (IMHO) you're overbraking a little before the first of the three tight turns. I think you could enter that first turn another 5 Km/Hr faster. (Says he - full of courage - sitting at his desk)
Similarly, (IMHO) it looks like you're overbraking a little at the end of the main straight. Which gear are you using for the left & right just before the start/finish? If you're using second, I suggest that you should use third and you might achieve and extra 10-15 Km/Hr through that section.
I see you were forced to change gears just before the end of the two back straights. That's a nuisance that detracts from lap times. I guess the professional teams solve that problem by altering gear/diff ratios for Winton. I always thought that an S2000 would do better with a Higher diff ratio at winton. Not much we can do about this though.
Also looking at the charts it seems you were braking hard at the last minute and using the slow-in fast-out technique. Is that right?
You're doing well through turns 1 & 2 and the sweeper. However after rocketing out of the sweeper & following kink (IMHO) you're overbraking a little before the first of the three tight turns. I think you could enter that first turn another 5 Km/Hr faster. (Says he - full of courage - sitting at his desk)
Similarly, (IMHO) it looks like you're overbraking a little at the end of the main straight. Which gear are you using for the left & right just before the start/finish? If you're using second, I suggest that you should use third and you might achieve and extra 10-15 Km/Hr through that section.
04-21-2005, 08:19 PM
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DavidM, I also notice from your graph that your corner speed for the second U-turn in the "tits" is noticeably faster than your speed through the first & third U-turns. (Approx 9-10 Km/Hr faster)
The big technical difficulty at Winton is the three tight U-turns at the back of the circuit. If you could find the optimum line through that section (for your particular car) you could shave 2 or 3 seconds off your lap time.
A lot of people hold back on the first corner so that they don't run wide on the exit. They do this because they want to get over to the RHS of the track before entering the second corner and there isn't much time to do so in the short distance between the two. That is, they are sacrificing a little time on turn one in the hope of making it up by having a later apex on turn two.
If you walk the track at Winton you'll notice that the exit area for the first of the three turns is wider than it appears when you approach the corner in a car. That is, you can go in faster, let the car run wide on exit and still not run off the track. However, if you do this you will then surrender some time if you attempt to "change lanes" before turn two.
I suggest that you might like to experiment with the following technique.
Enter turn one a little faster, let the car go wide on exit. Stay on the LHS after turn one and just cling to the inside line all the way around turn two. This will then leave you in the ideal entry position for turn three which also has a good wide exit area that you can exploit. That is, sacrifice a little mid-corner speed on turn two in order to gain higher speeds through turns one and three.
If you could achieve a higher exit speed from turn three via this technique you would then be able to make your 3/4 gear change 30-50 metres earlier. This would assist with the tight left hander at the end of that straight because you'd only be doing one gear change (instead of two) as you get critically close to that deceptive corner.
I say "deceptive" because as you approach, it looks like a 90 degree corner but in reality it is probably 100 or 110 degrees and the exit area is not wide. Consequently, any assistance you can give yourself in the entry to that corner will pay off in reduced lap times.
The big technical difficulty at Winton is the three tight U-turns at the back of the circuit. If you could find the optimum line through that section (for your particular car) you could shave 2 or 3 seconds off your lap time.
A lot of people hold back on the first corner so that they don't run wide on the exit. They do this because they want to get over to the RHS of the track before entering the second corner and there isn't much time to do so in the short distance between the two. That is, they are sacrificing a little time on turn one in the hope of making it up by having a later apex on turn two.
If you walk the track at Winton you'll notice that the exit area for the first of the three turns is wider than it appears when you approach the corner in a car. That is, you can go in faster, let the car run wide on exit and still not run off the track. However, if you do this you will then surrender some time if you attempt to "change lanes" before turn two.
I suggest that you might like to experiment with the following technique.
Enter turn one a little faster, let the car go wide on exit. Stay on the LHS after turn one and just cling to the inside line all the way around turn two. This will then leave you in the ideal entry position for turn three which also has a good wide exit area that you can exploit. That is, sacrifice a little mid-corner speed on turn two in order to gain higher speeds through turns one and three.
If you could achieve a higher exit speed from turn three via this technique you would then be able to make your 3/4 gear change 30-50 metres earlier. This would assist with the tight left hander at the end of that straight because you'd only be doing one gear change (instead of two) as you get critically close to that deceptive corner.
I say "deceptive" because as you approach, it looks like a 90 degree corner but in reality it is probably 100 or 110 degrees and the exit area is not wide. Consequently, any assistance you can give yourself in the entry to that corner will pay off in reduced lap times.
04-21-2005, 11:37 PM
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Just looking at the charts and striving to find a few fractions improvements here and there I'd make the following comments.
I'm always looking for ways to go quicker, so thanks for your feedback and insight.
I see you were forced to change gears just before the end of the two back straights. That's a nuisance that detracts from lap times.
Yep, 2nd and 3rd gear are just too short for me at Winton (and even Sandown) ... I would love it if each of these gears had another 10kph in it, but that's not going to happen. Though, I was happy with the S2000 gearing as it suited the track and car very much (at least for me).
Also looking at the charts it seems you were braking hard at the last minute and using the slow-in fast-out technique. Is that right?
Not necesarily. For me the main focus/objective is to get on power as soon as I can as that is usualy where the time is made up (ie. on the following straight). So I'm tring to find the line that lets me get on power ASAP, but at the same time I try not to spend any time between the throttle and accelerator. What I mean by that, that any time where you are not braking, or accelerating is a time lost so I try to brake as deep as I can so that I can then transition to the power application out of the corner.
Though, generaly speaking I'm trying to go as quick through the corner as the car will let me (and I dare), but not at the sacrifice of an exit line/speed where the most important thing is to be on (as much as possible) power as soon as possible.
You're doing well through turns 1 & 2 and the sweeper.
It feels like the turn 1 can be braked-for a bit later and entered a little bit quicker than what I do as I often find myself not using the whole width of the road ... I use it, but I do know that the car did not drift there by itself so I don't quite carry enough speed in. Though, my cornering Gs hover betweem 1.1 and 1.2gs so the car is on the limit ... it's just my line that is not optimal.
Also I drop a bit too much speed mid-sweeper ... there can be more speed carried through. Have a look at the following graph which shows my speed (ie. black) through the sweeper as well as the Gs ... they're are betweem 0.8 and 0.9 which is not close to my 1.2g tyre limit. btw, the black line is me, but the red line is a 944 on the same tyres:
(IMHO) you're overbraking a little before the first of the three tight turns. I think you could enter that first turn another 5 Km/Hr faster ... I also notice from your graph that your corner speed for the second U-turn in the "tits" is noticeably faster than your speed through the first & third U-turns. (Approx 9-10 Km/Hr faster)
Here's the plot for that section. Again, I'm the black line, and the red is the 944:
Through the 1st right hander my Gs are consistantly betweem 1 and 1.1g (and peak at 1.2 here and there) so I can't go much quicker with my current line. If I took a wider line then I probably could, but I would think that it would loose a lot of time because of the extra distance that I'd need to cover. Though, it's something worth experiminting with.
Through the left-hander I am pushing only 0.8 - 0.9g ... again, not pushing the limit and I should push harder here so some time to be made up here.
Then again through the last right-hander I'm pushing 1.1 - 1.2g so I'm pretty much on the limit ... and I use the whole road here (ie. from the apex to the exit curb which I sometimes get on). Though, I enter it from the inside and next time might try a wider entry as that should have benefits carried onto the following straight (ie. pit straight).
...they do this because they want to get over to the RHS of the track before entering the second corner ...
I literally run from apex to apex here ... I hug the inside curb on each corner in the U-turns to make the distance as short as possible.
Similarly, (IMHO) it looks like you're overbraking a little at the end of the main straight. Which gear are you using for the left & right just before the start/finish? If you're using second, I suggest that you should use third and you might achieve and extra 10-15 Km/Hr through that section.
I'm in 3rd gear here ... you can see that there's no gearchange on the following change untill ~136kph. Here's the speed and G graph through the S-bend:
I'm pulling only 0.9 - 1.0g on the turn-in to the S-bend and my 'total' G vector is not much greater either so there's certainly more entry speed to be had. It looks like I could enter the sweper quicker, but I guess I'm doing it to make sure I get a good exit as here (ie. through the right-hand part of the sweeper) I am pulling just over 1.2g and therefore have the car on the limit. In particular just after the change of direction.
Though, one would think that you could enter it quicker without changing anything on the exit as I could keep the same entry-line, but produce higher Gs (and hence more entry speed).
ps. Here's a map with the 3 above-mentioned sectors highlighted:
pps. How cool is this device and the stuff it tells you!!
I'm always looking for ways to go quicker, so thanks for your feedback and insight.
I see you were forced to change gears just before the end of the two back straights. That's a nuisance that detracts from lap times.
Yep, 2nd and 3rd gear are just too short for me at Winton (and even Sandown) ... I would love it if each of these gears had another 10kph in it, but that's not going to happen. Though, I was happy with the S2000 gearing as it suited the track and car very much (at least for me).
Also looking at the charts it seems you were braking hard at the last minute and using the slow-in fast-out technique. Is that right?
Not necesarily. For me the main focus/objective is to get on power as soon as I can as that is usualy where the time is made up (ie. on the following straight). So I'm tring to find the line that lets me get on power ASAP, but at the same time I try not to spend any time between the throttle and accelerator. What I mean by that, that any time where you are not braking, or accelerating is a time lost so I try to brake as deep as I can so that I can then transition to the power application out of the corner.
Though, generaly speaking I'm trying to go as quick through the corner as the car will let me (and I dare), but not at the sacrifice of an exit line/speed where the most important thing is to be on (as much as possible) power as soon as possible.
You're doing well through turns 1 & 2 and the sweeper.
It feels like the turn 1 can be braked-for a bit later and entered a little bit quicker than what I do as I often find myself not using the whole width of the road ... I use it, but I do know that the car did not drift there by itself so I don't quite carry enough speed in. Though, my cornering Gs hover betweem 1.1 and 1.2gs so the car is on the limit ... it's just my line that is not optimal.
Also I drop a bit too much speed mid-sweeper ... there can be more speed carried through. Have a look at the following graph which shows my speed (ie. black) through the sweeper as well as the Gs ... they're are betweem 0.8 and 0.9 which is not close to my 1.2g tyre limit. btw, the black line is me, but the red line is a 944 on the same tyres:
(IMHO) you're overbraking a little before the first of the three tight turns. I think you could enter that first turn another 5 Km/Hr faster ... I also notice from your graph that your corner speed for the second U-turn in the "tits" is noticeably faster than your speed through the first & third U-turns. (Approx 9-10 Km/Hr faster)
Here's the plot for that section. Again, I'm the black line, and the red is the 944:
Through the 1st right hander my Gs are consistantly betweem 1 and 1.1g (and peak at 1.2 here and there) so I can't go much quicker with my current line. If I took a wider line then I probably could, but I would think that it would loose a lot of time because of the extra distance that I'd need to cover. Though, it's something worth experiminting with.
Through the left-hander I am pushing only 0.8 - 0.9g ... again, not pushing the limit and I should push harder here so some time to be made up here.
Then again through the last right-hander I'm pushing 1.1 - 1.2g so I'm pretty much on the limit ... and I use the whole road here (ie. from the apex to the exit curb which I sometimes get on). Though, I enter it from the inside and next time might try a wider entry as that should have benefits carried onto the following straight (ie. pit straight).
...they do this because they want to get over to the RHS of the track before entering the second corner ...
I literally run from apex to apex here ... I hug the inside curb on each corner in the U-turns to make the distance as short as possible.
Similarly, (IMHO) it looks like you're overbraking a little at the end of the main straight. Which gear are you using for the left & right just before the start/finish? If you're using second, I suggest that you should use third and you might achieve and extra 10-15 Km/Hr through that section.
I'm in 3rd gear here ... you can see that there's no gearchange on the following change untill ~136kph. Here's the speed and G graph through the S-bend:
I'm pulling only 0.9 - 1.0g on the turn-in to the S-bend and my 'total' G vector is not much greater either so there's certainly more entry speed to be had. It looks like I could enter the sweper quicker, but I guess I'm doing it to make sure I get a good exit as here (ie. through the right-hand part of the sweeper) I am pulling just over 1.2g and therefore have the car on the limit. In particular just after the change of direction.
Though, one would think that you could enter it quicker without changing anything on the exit as I could keep the same entry-line, but produce higher Gs (and hence more entry speed).
ps. Here's a map with the 3 above-mentioned sectors highlighted:
pps. How cool is this device and the stuff it tells you!!