DavidM

Oh well 2nd is still another step up!

I never really thought that JB had a hope against Shuey ... it was innevitable that he'd get ahead and then pull away.

Though, I must say that the BAR/JB are becoming a lot more consistant than I would have given them hope (let alone credit) for ... it's 4 good races for BAR/JB. I'd have to say that if not for Shuey, then JB would be a contender for a title. As it is, his chances are about the same as me landing an F1 drive this year ;-)

We'll see if they can maintain this kind of consistancy when we're another 4 racers into the season.

tze

David - for the sake of my payout - i wish you all the best with landing a ride this year (even with minardi)

DavidM

David - for the sake of my payout - i wish you all the best with landing a ride this year (even with minardi)

That'd be something ;-) Though, there's really only one person standing between you and your payout, and that is Shuey. Get rid rid of him and you're in business ... your odds would instantly improve 1000x fold. So, if you can remove Shuey from the rest of the season then not only will you get a nice payout, but we're going to have one hellova competitive season.

ps. One way you can do that is by landing me his Ferrari seat ;-)

tafka TMB

Interesting that BAR have taken a big jump just when Honda is questioning if the'll continue in F1?

They seem to have come out of nowhere (and Williams and McLaren have dropped the ball big time).

It would be interesting to see how the series would pan out if the Big Schu was out of it (remember when he broke his leg at the British GP?). Ferrari have got such a big budget and such a good team that it is hard to see them being anything but competitive for a long time.

Conspiracy theorists are predicting that measures that will be taken to slow down F1 cars will have a side effect of making the Ferraris less dominant (I don't believe that).

DavidM

...will have a side effect of making the Ferraris less dominant

Well, the way I see it, the Ferraris are not dominant at all. They seem competitive when you take Shuey out of the equation. What I do see is Shuey being dominant though.

I see no reason to slow down the Ferrari ... it seems like it's a very beatable car when someone else but Shuey drives it. Maybe that's what they mean ... show down Shuey, and not Ferrari (ie. he will not be allowed to qualify and hence has to start from the rear ;-)

naishou

No offence to Barrichello, but I think Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso and possibly Button or Webber would give Michael a run for his money in the Ferrari. So for that matter might his brother. The problem is that when you join Ferrari you know that you're going to be very much number 2 while Michael is there.

DavidM

No offence to Barrichello, but I think Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso and possibly Button or Webber would give Michael a run for his money in the Ferrari.

I like every driver you mentioned, but I'm not sure if anyone of them is better than Barrichello. Just as good - probably, but better - I'm not sure? Remember that before Barrichello came to Ferrari, he was regardwer as one of the quickest and most tallented drrivers (and looked like it too). Putting a driver in the same car as Shuey seems to always discredit their driver skill ... what's to say that ano of the above-mentioned drivers would not be discreditted just as much as Barrichello is now?

I would pressume that a driver in a Williams can (and should) beat another driver of equal skill in the Ferrari. That does not go just for this year, but last 3 - 5 years.

The problem is that when you join Ferrari you know that you're going to be very much number 2 while Michael is there.

I don't know ... the way I see it, you're only #2 if you perfrorm like #2. If Barrichello was just as quick (or quicker) than Shuey, then he'd be #1. Why would anyone make a slower driver their #1? It's no different to Webber being #1 in Jag and Button #1 at BAR. They are there because they are beating their team0mates.

naishou

This is a kind of a chicken and egg problem. You say Rubens is number 2 because he performs that way. But he went to Ferrari as number 2. It was already decided that he would run second to Michael. You can't deny that being number 2 gives you less chance to excel, and that's especially true with the Maranello team.

When you go to Ferrari, you don't get a chance to show whether you are faster than your teammate or not. It's more or less written into Michael's contract. All the drivers know it and all the other team principals know it. It's one of the worst kept secrets in Formula 1. When Rubens went to Ferrari there was a lot of talk about why such a promising driver would do such a thing given that it basically gave him nil chance of winning a significant amount. A lot of drivers thought he'd sold out. Maybe you've also never read an interview with Eddie Irvine since he retired.

Ferrari segregates their two cars into more distinct subteams than the others do. The cars are not always identical and you can guess who gets the best engineers on his case and the most attention on race weekends. Even so, despite getting unequal resources, Eddie and Rubens have both at times outclassed Michael. He's not superhuman. Very disciplined and consistent yes, and also extremely good at team politics. If anything that's where he really outclasses say Montoya. And his immense self belief is where he's better than Raikkonen. However, for raw speed in the same car (same spec, same setup, same pit crew, same everything), I'd have my money on Montoya or Raikkonen, or Alonso. Seriously. Michael is still the best driver for sure, if you count the politics, team morale building, mental discipline and intimidation of other drivers, and for sure that's part (most) of the craft. There are others out there though who could give him a real scare if put in the same machine with the same support base. I'm not saying any of this is unfair by the way. Unlike some who whinge every time Michael wins a race I admire his mastery of everything that is Formula 1. I also acknowledge though that Formula 1 is not all about how well you can steer the car. I think there's a popular misconception that Michael somehow makes the car go miraculously faster than someone else could. There is no magic in F1. Telemetry reveals all

Now back to Jenson Good luck to him. They're already talking about him replacing Schuey now.

RedRover

This discussion is as old as motorsport itself. The current situation at Ferrari is remarkably similar to the situation at Mercedes in the 1950s when they had Juan Manuel Fangio at #1 and Stirling Moss at #2.

I acknowledge that most of the folks here are too young to remember all this but if anyone would like to expand on this topic I would be happy to do so.

Coming back to more recent times I would point out that Michael Schumacher first won when he was at Benneton. This was a clearly a case of a better driver in a lesser car beating better cars with lesser drivers. Now that we have the best driver in the best car the combination is going to be dominant - like winning the first 4 races in a row.

I agree that "Telemetry reveals all", in particular it reveals the different skill levels between drivers.

DavidM

When you go to Ferrari, you don't get a chance to show whether you are faster than your teammate or not.

Yes and no (and that is just from an observers point of view). I'd say 'yes' because Michael is quicker and noone has challenged him (ie. so why not be the #1). And 'no' because I can't believe that a team (in this case Ferrari) would have a driver who is quicker than Michael, and not let them excel (and win even more). All the drivers get a chance to shine in testing and in there I'm sure they have the same equipment as all the other peole testing (including Michael). If Rubens (or anyone else) is cosistently quicker than Michael in the private tests, then I'm sure he would not stay as #2. That goes for any team ... #2s become #1s if they show superior performance to their team-mates.

So, I can't see how Ferrari could have a driver who is quicker than Michael (or at least as quick) and would not let them at least come 2nd in the races ... why would they not want him to come in 2nd and be beaten by the opposition?

There are others out there though who could give him a real scare if put in the same machine with the same support base.

I would like to see that ... but by going on what I have seen over the last couple of years, it looks like that is not the case. It looks like Michael is quicker than anyone else in F1 at the moment (and over the last 10 years), no matter what the equipment.

Not going only by what we see today, but by what we saw from Michael when he came to Jordan (ie. qualified 6th in his 1st race), what we saw from him when he came to Benetton (ie. qualified high up and won in wet races even before the car was competitive), and then what he did when he came to Ferrari and the car was not that good (ie. be he was at the front and winning here and there). I don't see anyone else doing that (now or over the last 10 years.

Yes, he's human, he can be beaten etc .... just it does not look like there is or was anyone who can do that over the last 10 years. Hakkinnen has a lot of repect from me 'cos he could do it ... so far, noone else has managed to do that. JV in his early days looked like he could as well (in a superior car). That's about all that I can think off.

I do hope that Montoya, Alonso, Webber etc can matture into drivers who can do that kind stuff, but that is not the case today.