As far as I can tell, current 911's and Caymans are very reliable. Porsche brought in Toyota to help them adopt their quality processes and production techniques some time ago (10 -15years?) back when they weren't doing so well. Whatever they spent on those consulting services certainly paid off.

 

Early to mid 90s I think. Not sure if it was Toyota specifically or some of the masters of the Toyota system. There's a great quote in one of the major Lean Production books about how something happened for the first time on the Porsche assembly line on some specific date in the 90s, after they implemented Lean - the first ever Porsche with no defects that had to be rectified rolled off the line.

 

I do agree it's possible that Porsche could be better than BMW in reliability but it's TBD exactly how good/bad the M3 is. Also IDK about the M5. I know 2 people with the current gen M5 and have not heard they had any problems. Now granted they are not checking in with me, but probably I would have heard if either was in the shop a lot.

I know not all things being equal with a M3 v 911 comparison but if there was a comparision either way the M3 is probably similar speed to the 911S which is a $80K+ car and the M3 is a $60K car. which means if you take a chance on a M3 even if blows an engine (not likely but if you get one of the dogs) you are starting $20K to $30K lower with the price of the M3.

I do see a Cayman S v M3 price going head to head but IMO the M3 is +120hp (I know it's 500 lbs heavier which negates power) but if a M3 had the power/weight of a Cayman S it would be 350hp at the same M3 weight (36xx) as opposed to 420hp. What I mean is current M3 has power/weight better than a 911S (slightly) so in a straight line contest probably M3 > 911S > Cayman S

Now I will grant that who knows powertrain loss or what's the real power or area under the curve you can't just look at power/weight but trap speeds (I think bear this out)

from R&T (I know different days etc..) but 1/4 mile trap speeds:

Cayman S 105.3 mph
911 C4S 110.2 mph
911 GT3 RS 114.6 mph
M3 114.8 mph
C6 (436hp) 115.7 mph
M5 115.8 mph
911 turbo 118.3 mph

I know people are gonna call me a mag racer. But I am not judging my car on what the numbers it puts out I am just pointing out the Porsche are less power-per dollar. I know that's not a news flash just a tidbit that if you want a same/similar power to a M3 in a 911-range you are at the GT3 415hp for $110K when a M3 starts almost half that price $57K (ish).

 

Deep Sea Blue 550i with black Dakota leather and sport, cold weather, and aero package FTW. Who care's if the new M3 is faster. The 550 is luxury!

 

[QUOTE=rai,Feb 9 2008, 01:13 PM]
I know people are gonna call me a mag racer.

 

[QUOTE=cbehney,Feb 9 2008, 10:38 AM]

 

It might be that there's a generation thing too. There are still plenty of people alive (and maybe buying Porsches?) who remember that in earlier years a "sportscar" wasn't about power per se, it was about quickness, handling, enjoyment, the way you could control the car and feel part of it. Many early sportscars didn't have a ton of hp, but they engaged you in the driving in a way that muscle cars didn't. And they were small and light. I'm not saying the M3 isn't like that, I'm just saying that Porsche seems to get it, and remember that definition, better than most companies. In a way they've earned their mystique by being truer to their roots. It's a little ironic that we're contrasting Porsches and BMWs, since BMW is also a company that gets it. Honda seemed to get it for a brief moment in time and then I assume they suffered mass amnesia....

 

As is always the case with M cars, there's more to it than you can read in a spec sheet. One is a luxury car, the other is much more sporty. Apples and oranges, totally different in the most important way, how they feel. You could have 110% of the performance in the 550, and it could still only be half as fun.

 

one thing I was thinking about the Porsche cars it's possible for them to make more powerful cars. I mean BMW and MB drop 400hp and 500hp cars in lower price cars. So it doesn't cost a lot of money per-say and it does not have to weigh a lot to have power since the Z06 is 500hp for not a lot more weight of 295hp Cayman.

I think Porsche knows people will pay the extra. I mean if you are OK with the 295hp in the $60K car take it but if you want the 400hp you need the turbo or GT3 which cost 2x the cost.

 

You beat me to it!

I really don't get the comparisons, they're not all that similar cars. For people who appreciate the Porsche feel, there is no substitue. What does the M3 weigh, 700 lbs. more? Where is its engine? Yep, in the same spot as most other more domesticated cars on the road. BMW's have always been a better value than Porsches, and likely always will as long as Porschephiles value whatever it is they do about owning a Porsche vs. a BMW.

Here's an article covering Toyota's involvement in helping Porsche back in the mid-90's: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/cont...0817_023300.htm

Porsche has an interesting brochure called "What makes a Porsche a Porsche? Sure, it's marketing, but it gave me a greater appreciation for what differentiates their cars from many other brands.
http://www.porsche.com/all/legends/downloa...cheaPorsche.pdf

Re: the idea of the M3's engine in the CS, I'd say no - it's a gas guzzler, has a higher center of gravity, likely less reliable, and I don't expect it will have as pleasing an aural character to me. I would be happy to settle for the 3.8 X51 Porsche engine, though....and it's an easy (if not cheap) bolt-in.

I'd love to have an M3 or 335 sedan, but they're not sports cars.