Can Japan penetrate the exotic market?
02-18-2007, 07:26 PM
#101
Thread Starter
I'm not sure what the prior debate was about exotic cars. It really does not matter much what our opinions are on this subject. The industry has its own opinion on this subject. The word exotic was applied to cars that were just what the word means. "Foreign, unusual, exciting, strange and glamorous" are some of the definitions you will find in the dictionary. It does not mean rare or super expensive. I think you will find the automotive industry includes Porsche in the exotic catagory, even if some of you do not.
I think some of you are also a little skewed in your view of the world. As a pecentage of the population, there are very few people that can afford a Porsche. It may not seem out of reach to you, but it is well out of reach to over 90% of the population.
Earlier, someone stated that this is the same question raised when the Japanese entered the luxury division. I think it is a little different. Honda tried once with the NSX, failed to develop the car and then withdrew it with no replacement. This isn't about whether it is possible for Japan to do it, but rather "will" they do it. Or said differently, can they do it within their corporate structure? Can a large car company justify the high investment and low volume that is typical for the manufacture of exotic cars?
I think some of you are also a little skewed in your view of the world. As a pecentage of the population, there are very few people that can afford a Porsche. It may not seem out of reach to you, but it is well out of reach to over 90% of the population.
Earlier, someone stated that this is the same question raised when the Japanese entered the luxury division. I think it is a little different. Honda tried once with the NSX, failed to develop the car and then withdrew it with no replacement. This isn't about whether it is possible for Japan to do it, but rather "will" they do it. Or said differently, can they do it within their corporate structure? Can a large car company justify the high investment and low volume that is typical for the manufacture of exotic cars?
02-19-2007, 12:20 PM
#102
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I find this whole thread amusing.
There was a fantastic article in Motor Cyclist or Cycle World about the differences between European and Japanese sportbikes. Why is it that Ducatis are considerably more expensive than their Japanese counterparts while offering an arguably lower level of performance.
The answer is feel. A Ducati is created by one designer who is passionate about motorcycles and has a clear vision for what he wants in a motorcycle. He doesn't care about the fact that the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light and new shock valving. He wants his bike to put a smile on your face and a tingle in your spine. He wants his motorcycle to look and feel different from his competitors. He wants to push the boundaries of design.
Japanese bikes are designed by a committee of mechanical engineers in white labcoats who have a list of features offered by competitive motorcycle manufacturers that they have to match and exceed. If the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light, then by golly the 2007 Honda CBR has to have a shift light. The Japanese engineers want to their bike to be 0.01 seconds faster around a track than their competitors and hope that you will be impressed enough by this to buy their bike. They are more interested in function versus form. As a result, their bikes are cheaper because they are a commodity item.
I think that these societal differences extend to the car industry as well. As a result, I think that the Japanese will have a tough time in the high end sportscar market.
There was a fantastic article in Motor Cyclist or Cycle World about the differences between European and Japanese sportbikes. Why is it that Ducatis are considerably more expensive than their Japanese counterparts while offering an arguably lower level of performance.
The answer is feel. A Ducati is created by one designer who is passionate about motorcycles and has a clear vision for what he wants in a motorcycle. He doesn't care about the fact that the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light and new shock valving. He wants his bike to put a smile on your face and a tingle in your spine. He wants his motorcycle to look and feel different from his competitors. He wants to push the boundaries of design.
Japanese bikes are designed by a committee of mechanical engineers in white labcoats who have a list of features offered by competitive motorcycle manufacturers that they have to match and exceed. If the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light, then by golly the 2007 Honda CBR has to have a shift light. The Japanese engineers want to their bike to be 0.01 seconds faster around a track than their competitors and hope that you will be impressed enough by this to buy their bike. They are more interested in function versus form. As a result, their bikes are cheaper because they are a commodity item.
I think that these societal differences extend to the car industry as well. As a result, I think that the Japanese will have a tough time in the high end sportscar market.
02-19-2007, 12:26 PM
#103
Originally Posted by slicksilver,Feb 19 2007, 03:20 PM
I find this whole thread amusing.
There was a fantastic article in Motor Cyclist or Cycle World about the differences between European and Japanese sportbikes. Why is it that Ducatis are considerably more expensive than their Japanese counterparts while offering an arguably lower level of performance.
The answer is feel. A Ducati is created by one designer who is passionate about motorcycles and has a clear vision for what he wants in a motorcycle. He doesn't care about the fact that the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light and new shock valving. He wants his bike to put a smile on your face and a tingle in your spine. He wants his motorcycle to look and feel different from his competitors. He wants to push the boundaries of design.
Japanese bikes are designed by a committee of mechanical engineers in white labcoats who have a list of features offered by competitive motorcycle manufacturers that they have to match and exceed. If the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light, then by golly the 2007 Honda CBR has to have a shift light. The Japanese engineers want to their bike to be 0.01 seconds faster around a track than their competitors and hope that you will be impressed enough by this to buy their bike. They are more interested in function versus form. As a result, their bikes are cheaper because they are a commodity item.
I think that these societal differences extend to the car industry as well. As a result, I think that the Japanese will have a tough time in the high end sportscar market.
There was a fantastic article in Motor Cyclist or Cycle World about the differences between European and Japanese sportbikes. Why is it that Ducatis are considerably more expensive than their Japanese counterparts while offering an arguably lower level of performance.
The answer is feel. A Ducati is created by one designer who is passionate about motorcycles and has a clear vision for what he wants in a motorcycle. He doesn't care about the fact that the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light and new shock valving. He wants his bike to put a smile on your face and a tingle in your spine. He wants his motorcycle to look and feel different from his competitors. He wants to push the boundaries of design.
Japanese bikes are designed by a committee of mechanical engineers in white labcoats who have a list of features offered by competitive motorcycle manufacturers that they have to match and exceed. If the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light, then by golly the 2007 Honda CBR has to have a shift light. The Japanese engineers want to their bike to be 0.01 seconds faster around a track than their competitors and hope that you will be impressed enough by this to buy their bike. They are more interested in function versus form. As a result, their bikes are cheaper because they are a commodity item.
I think that these societal differences extend to the car industry as well. As a result, I think that the Japanese will have a tough time in the high end sportscar market.
Until a few years ago, practically everything I had w/ wheels and a motor was Japanese, and they all suited me well.
Little by little, all my cars and motorcycles have been replaced w/ European models, as they offer a different feel/character that I like.
02-19-2007, 03:55 PM
#104
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Originally Posted by slicksilver,Feb 19 2007, 01:20 PM
I find this whole thread amusing.
There was a fantastic article in Motor Cyclist or Cycle World about the differences between European and Japanese sportbikes. Why is it that Ducatis are considerably more expensive than their Japanese counterparts while offering an arguably lower level of performance.
The answer is feel. A Ducati is created by one designer who is passionate about motorcycles and has a clear vision for what he wants in a motorcycle. He doesn't care about the fact that the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light and new shock valving. He wants his bike to put a smile on your face and a tingle in your spine. He wants his motorcycle to look and feel different from his competitors. He wants to push the boundaries of design.
Japanese bikes are designed by a committee of mechanical engineers in white labcoats who have a list of features offered by competitive motorcycle manufacturers that they have to match and exceed. If the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light, then by golly the 2007 Honda CBR has to have a shift light. The Japanese engineers want to their bike to be 0.01 seconds faster around a track than their competitors and hope that you will be impressed enough by this to buy their bike. They are more interested in function versus form. As a result, their bikes are cheaper because they are a commodity item.
I think that these societal differences extend to the car industry as well. As a result, I think that the Japanese will have a tough time in the high end sportscar market.
There was a fantastic article in Motor Cyclist or Cycle World about the differences between European and Japanese sportbikes. Why is it that Ducatis are considerably more expensive than their Japanese counterparts while offering an arguably lower level of performance.
The answer is feel. A Ducati is created by one designer who is passionate about motorcycles and has a clear vision for what he wants in a motorcycle. He doesn't care about the fact that the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light and new shock valving. He wants his bike to put a smile on your face and a tingle in your spine. He wants his motorcycle to look and feel different from his competitors. He wants to push the boundaries of design.
Japanese bikes are designed by a committee of mechanical engineers in white labcoats who have a list of features offered by competitive motorcycle manufacturers that they have to match and exceed. If the 2007 Yamaha R1 has a shift light, then by golly the 2007 Honda CBR has to have a shift light. The Japanese engineers want to their bike to be 0.01 seconds faster around a track than their competitors and hope that you will be impressed enough by this to buy their bike. They are more interested in function versus form. As a result, their bikes are cheaper because they are a commodity item.
I think that these societal differences extend to the car industry as well. As a result, I think that the Japanese will have a tough time in the high end sportscar market.
02-19-2007, 04:02 PM
#105
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Spartikus,Feb 19 2007, 07:55 PM
Funny, because that doesn't seem to be Hondas position with cars.
02-19-2007, 04:04 PM
#107
Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Feb 18 2007, 08:26 PM
I'm not sure what the prior debate was about exotic cars. It really does not matter much what our opinions are on this subject. The industry has its own opinion on this subject. The word exotic was applied to cars that were just what the word means. "Foreign, unusual, exciting, strange and glamorous" are some of the definitions you will find in the dictionary. It does not mean rare or super expensive. I think you will find the automotive industry includes Porsche in the exotic catagory, even if some of you do not.
I think some of you are also a little skewed in your view of the world. As a pecentage of the population, there are very few people that can afford a Porsche. It may not seem out of reach to you, but it is well out of reach to over 90% of the population.
Earlier, someone stated that this is the same question raised when the Japanese entered the luxury division. I think it is a little different. Honda tried once with the NSX, failed to develop the car and then withdrew it with no replacement. This isn't about whether it is possible for Japan to do it, but rather "will" they do it. Or said differently, can they do it within their corporate structure? Can a large car company justify the high investment and low volume that is typical for the manufacture of exotic cars?
I think some of you are also a little skewed in your view of the world. As a pecentage of the population, there are very few people that can afford a Porsche. It may not seem out of reach to you, but it is well out of reach to over 90% of the population.
Earlier, someone stated that this is the same question raised when the Japanese entered the luxury division. I think it is a little different. Honda tried once with the NSX, failed to develop the car and then withdrew it with no replacement. This isn't about whether it is possible for Japan to do it, but rather "will" they do it. Or said differently, can they do it within their corporate structure? Can a large car company justify the high investment and low volume that is typical for the manufacture of exotic cars?
I do agree with you that it's more of a matter of Japanese manufacturers wanting to enter the segment which I am sure they do. Anyway, if you see all the money these companies pump into just creating exciting engineering exercises, it makes sense that at some point it'll spin off into a full fledge car.
02-19-2007, 04:06 PM
#108
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wow the bike thing is amusing... I can see it as a partial truth... but the reason people "feel" special about a ducati, is because they just blew $20k on a V-twin.... it's the same feeling Harley owners get... maybe it's a feeling of "I bet I look so cool to the guy in that car next to me right now"... but you'll notice other sportbike riders do not obsess over anyone's Ducati (or MV, Mille, etc) the way car guys drool over a Lambo, Ferrari etc.
Personally, if I liked the sound I'd just go for an SV650, you can actually take it on a long trip without worrying about getting a valve adjustment halfway through
Personally, if I liked the sound I'd just go for an SV650, you can actually take it on a long trip without worrying about getting a valve adjustment halfway through
02-19-2007, 06:11 PM
#109
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Originally Posted by slicksilver,Feb 19 2007, 01:20 PM
I think that these societal differences extend to the car industry as well. As a result, I think that the Japanese will have a tough time in the high end sportscar market.
I still feel that if the Japanese set out to do it, they will do it well. Maybe not on the first try, or the second, but they will get it right and everyone else will take notice.
02-19-2007, 06:34 PM
#110
Originally Posted by PDX S2000,Feb 19 2007, 07:06 PM
wow the bike thing is amusing... I can see it as a partial truth... but the reason people "feel" special about a ducati, is because they just blew $20k on a V-twin.... it's the same feeling Harley owners get... maybe it's a feeling of "I bet I look so cool to the guy in that car next to me right now"... but you'll notice other sportbike riders do not obsess over anyone's Ducati (or MV, Mille, etc) the way car guys drool over a Lambo, Ferrari etc.
Personally, if I liked the sound I'd just go for an SV650, you can actually take it on a long trip without worrying about getting a valve adjustment halfway through
Personally, if I liked the sound I'd just go for an SV650, you can actually take it on a long trip without worrying about getting a valve adjustment halfway through
The SV is a great bike, but it doesn't sound like a Duc. No dry clutch for starters. IMO, a Ducati makes one of the greatest engine sounds ever.