The Core of the Problem in the Auto Industry
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From: Tulsa, OK
I fail to see what unions do other than artificially inflate salaries and give companies less flexibility in managing their number of employees. I'm sure JoeyBalls likes the safety a union provides, but he's living in a dream world if he thinks unions would help our economy if they got more prevalent. I've been laid off from a job and while I didn't like it, it's what happens. I don't see how a union would have put my old employer in a better financial position to make it more likely for me to have kept my job. If you don't want your jobs sent off to another country then learn a skill that is not as conducive to outsourcing.
You're not entitled to your job for life at an inflated salary with ridiculous pension and retirement benefits. When blue collar manufacturing people with very little skills are making more than a lot of college graduates, it's hard to justify unions as anything other than a way for blue collar people to artificially inflate their salaries by grabbing the companies by the balls. My sister's friend was an engineer at a GM plant and knew of a lady who honked the horn of every new truck and was getting over $35/hour plus OT. That's a minimum wage job, but GM is having to pay ridiculous wages because of unions. Every five year old can honk a horn and tell you whether it's working or not.
You're not entitled to your job for life at an inflated salary with ridiculous pension and retirement benefits. When blue collar manufacturing people with very little skills are making more than a lot of college graduates, it's hard to justify unions as anything other than a way for blue collar people to artificially inflate their salaries by grabbing the companies by the balls. My sister's friend was an engineer at a GM plant and knew of a lady who honked the horn of every new truck and was getting over $35/hour plus OT. That's a minimum wage job, but GM is having to pay ridiculous wages because of unions. Every five year old can honk a horn and tell you whether it's working or not.
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From: Burlington, VT
Originally Posted by JoeyBalls,Sep 15 2008, 04:54 PM
Get a clue.
Riiiiight </end sarcasm>Okay, I agree that they had their place at one time, and some still do. I was only speaking for the automotive industry. I have no business with other industries' unions, so I can't speak to those - I have an opinion on them, but no experience.
Only American companies still have unions in the United States. Foreign companies manufacture automobiles in the states and have not needed unions. In fact, they've done their best to stay as far away from them as possible, and they still attract a lot of American workers - please explain that.
I'll be so bold to bet that for every job the union has kept in the United States, another job was farmed to another country because of a union.....in the Automotive industry. Why else would Ford build cars in Mexico and Chrysler tried to keep the manufacturing ties Mercedes has outside of the US?
You can start your own thread about how great unions are in the airline industry, but just start it in Off Topic, or I'll put it in the dumpster
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From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by JoeyBalls,Sep 15 2008, 01:40 PM
Heres the problem, UNIONS are a necessary evil, and some labor groups exploit the fact that they have a union. I feel the Auto workers are being unrealistic, heres why
Sales of SUV have plummeted, and I mean dropped of the face of the earth, in turn production for these models has, as it should, stopped. The workers for the most part are probably not educated enough to understand world economics or, more then likely, don't care if the manufacturer needs to cut production, they just want to be paid. <-----this is the negative side of a Union, some labor groups are unwilling to bend even when it would be in their best interests, ESPECIALLY when their job requires no real skill. ( this should not be the case if the company is making millions upon millions of profits)
I will pose this question to you, what if GM were to say, "sorry UNION workers you want 50k a year to do this job I have someone willing to undercut, whoops I mean someone who is willing to be more "cost competitive" and is not only willing to work for 15k a year but he doesn't want benefits and he will work through his lunch," <------ this type of stuff happens at non union places.(not saying all NON-UNION is bad, but there is potential that it could be used to managements advantage.
At my airline, someone gets a missed trip (they essentially miss their flight, the one they are supposed to work) they can be fired just like that at a non union airline, it would be almost impossible to get another airline job, and airline careers are a very costly thing to obtain, in my airlines case, we have a UNION to protect the pilots and if they are terminated 9 times out of 10 we can get them their job back, (unless they fly the airplane like they stole it), we also have a UNION to NEGOTIATE our contract, pay rates, work rules, what kind of hotels we stay at etc......and as a matter of fact we are negotiating with our company right now to take 10% pay cuts to keep the airline afloat
I think Unions need to be in check because forklift operators, much like the "people movers" in Washington Dulles airport make a ton of money for a remedial job that requires no education or skill.
My last comment in all of my ramblings is that it is usually the workers, UNION/NON-UNION that has to pay the price for a poorly run comapny, meanwhile those who put the company there in the first place WILL ALWAYS be compensated quite nicely while Jonny commonman waits in line at the un-employment office.
I may be way off here but just explaining my view as a UNION worker
Sales of SUV have plummeted, and I mean dropped of the face of the earth, in turn production for these models has, as it should, stopped. The workers for the most part are probably not educated enough to understand world economics or, more then likely, don't care if the manufacturer needs to cut production, they just want to be paid. <-----this is the negative side of a Union, some labor groups are unwilling to bend even when it would be in their best interests, ESPECIALLY when their job requires no real skill. ( this should not be the case if the company is making millions upon millions of profits)
I will pose this question to you, what if GM were to say, "sorry UNION workers you want 50k a year to do this job I have someone willing to undercut, whoops I mean someone who is willing to be more "cost competitive" and is not only willing to work for 15k a year but he doesn't want benefits and he will work through his lunch," <------ this type of stuff happens at non union places.(not saying all NON-UNION is bad, but there is potential that it could be used to managements advantage.
At my airline, someone gets a missed trip (they essentially miss their flight, the one they are supposed to work) they can be fired just like that at a non union airline, it would be almost impossible to get another airline job, and airline careers are a very costly thing to obtain, in my airlines case, we have a UNION to protect the pilots and if they are terminated 9 times out of 10 we can get them their job back, (unless they fly the airplane like they stole it), we also have a UNION to NEGOTIATE our contract, pay rates, work rules, what kind of hotels we stay at etc......and as a matter of fact we are negotiating with our company right now to take 10% pay cuts to keep the airline afloat
I think Unions need to be in check because forklift operators, much like the "people movers" in Washington Dulles airport make a ton of money for a remedial job that requires no education or skill.
My last comment in all of my ramblings is that it is usually the workers, UNION/NON-UNION that has to pay the price for a poorly run comapny, meanwhile those who put the company there in the first place WILL ALWAYS be compensated quite nicely while Jonny commonman waits in line at the un-employment office.
I may be way off here but just explaining my view as a UNION worker
US companies move manufacturing to MEXICO because its CHEAPER, which as you all know increases the value of the company and increases shareholder value
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From: Tulsa, OK
Originally Posted by JoeyBalls,Sep 15 2008, 04:48 PM
re-read
US companies move manufacturing to MEXICO because its CHEAPER, which as you all know increases the value of the company and increases shareholder value
US companies move manufacturing to MEXICO because its CHEAPER, which as you all know increases the value of the company and increases shareholder value
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From: North Richland Hills, TX
Originally Posted by JoeyBalls,Sep 15 2008, 03:40 PM
I will pose this question to you, what if GM were to say, "sorry UNION workers you want 50k a year to do this job I have someone willing to undercut, whoops I mean someone who is willing to be more "cost competitive" and is not only willing to work for 15k a year but he doesn't want benefits and he will work through his lunch," <------ this type of stuff happens at non union places.(not saying all NON-UNION is bad, but there is potential that it could be used to managements advantage.
The guy making 50K is probably making 3x+ what he's worth, but is protected by the union.
My employer could easily replace me w/ cheaper labor on a whim - it motivates me to work hard and contribute value commensurate w/ the cost of keeping me around. If/when I do get laid off, I'll look for another job instead of bitching about how I didn't have a union to protect me.
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From: Tulsa, OK
Originally Posted by Yellow_S,Sep 15 2008, 05:03 PM
Not all of unions are bad. Some unions are very helpful to workers.