Chris S

Ford may have a power advantage, but only b/c they slap a heavy S/C on the engine. I'd rather have 400-425 N/A horsies.

dmz

Spartikus

I don't have to have driven it to see that every single year consistently gets the some of the slowest times at autox events. Body roll, wheel hop, and zero traction all over the place. When some cars would come flying through the corner I was working at the last event I would take a step back from the frightening speed, when the Mustangs came through at half the pace it was frightening because it looked like they were going to lose it.

The only Mustang I have driven was a '99 Cobra. It was only fun because I thought it was fast(coming from a Jeep). I take it you're impressed by hp numbers. No, they're really garbage. I'd take any sporty offering from Chrysler or GM before I took a Mustang(unless I was only considering looks).

Rather than running your mouth about people that you don't even know, how about you counter my points? Think they handle? Think they are better for straight lines than cars that have 1L+ displacement on them? Think they are built better? Or do you just get upset when someone has bad things to say about a domestic?

Slamnasty

No matter what happens, Ford needs to reduce the Mustang's weight. It really should not be that heavy. Maybe the extra weight makes it feel more solid, but it's just a big porky car.

Um, you're only partly right. Since the Mustang is the only pony car around at the moment, and since so many people buy it (or get old ones to mod and race), there are naturally going to be a lot of guys that take theirs to the track. It's also likely you're seeing all kinds of bad drivers driving a Mustang badly around the track. When I go to the local car show, the Mustang section is always the biggest. From my perspective, you're seeing all this subpar Mustang action because it just happens to be about the most common car at just about any event. Naturally this will not play the good-to-bad driver ratios well.

Regarding Ford turning up the heat, that was largely not the case when the Camaro and Firebird were around. From 1992 through to their death, GM was the one who really got things going early with cars like the 93 Camaro Z28, with 275hp and a 6-speed. The Mustang back then still had just 215hp unless you got the Cobra (which the Z28 was already close to in hp). The SLP versions were also available for people to buy up into for not terribly much more money, and those had over 300hp. But even before the 1993 model year, the Camaro and Trans Am had at least as much horsepower or more than the Mustang. Ford only really rejoined the horsepower race after GM had already passed 300hp with stock Z28s and Trans Ams.

I'm hoping GM will take heed and keep Camaro weight low. Maybe they won't since the Corvette is already pretty light, and a 400hp Camaro that's lighter could upset the balance, but it would be something I'd want as a potential customer. I also hope it's not Mustang huge.

no_really

I totally agree. Historically, Ford has made smaller Mustangs and larger ones, as the market changed. The original ones were rather small for the cars of the time, then they grew into the 70's. The Mustang II began a trend for a smaller, lighter car. That morphed into the SN95 cars, which were a bit heavy, IMHO, but at ~3200-3300 lbs., not much more than a Corvette. The new S197 cars gained a few hundred pounds, are a bit bigger, and are less aerodynamic than the SN95 cars, but benefit from a better suspension design and a more powerful engine. They benefit enough to do rather well against 911's and M3's in Grand Am racing. They'd do better with a smaller, more aerodynamic car, but whatever.

Time will tell if Ford decides a smaller, lighter car is in order, but as long as the current car is flying off lots, I don't know that they'll make any dramatic changes. I personally hope they don't worry all that much about increasing power, and focus on losing weight and improving the aerodynamics.

History has shown that Mustang buyers typically don't care all that much if a Camaro makes more power when it comes time to buy a car. They're two different cars, and power is just one metric. However, if the new Camaro and Challenger manage to be in the 3200 lb. range and sell well, maybe Ford will take a hint and find their way back to a small, light Mustang. It looks like the new Camaro is gong to have multiple engine options, with a base V8 right around the current Mustang GT power level. If that's the case, all Ford would have to do to beat it would be make a lighter Mustang, which would handle better just by being lighter.

I think a lot of people forget that there aren't that many light weight, high horsepower factory cars out there. There's a reason. High torque engines require a strong chassis and drivetrain, and a strong chassis/drivetrain weighs more. You can use lighter materials and keep the strength and stiffness, but you up the cost. It isn't so easy to chop the weight while upping the power, and price tags reflect this. This doesn't even take into account increasingly onerous federal safety regulations, which mandate changes that add weight and cost to new cars. Something's got to give.

I also agree with the rest of your post, slamnasty

Spartikus

I see what you're saying, but 3 out of 5 Mustangs were in the bottom 10 out of 93 cars that showed up. Out of the two others, one placed in the bottom 15 and the last one was an '04 Saleen on Kumho Ecsta V710's that was still a few places behind a stock S2k on street tires. The Saleen driver I know is experienced. I'll stick by my statement that they handle very poorly.

It would have been great had the GT500 stayed within 100lbs of a GT. Yeah it probably needed stronger heavier parts, but 400-500lbs is too much to have added. Hence my statement about taking a step forward with power then taking a step back with weight.

I predict the Camaro/Challenger/Mustang will all continue to weigh 3400-3500lbs. The Challenger could end up being lighter if they do some SRT-8 version because Chrysler doesn't have to worry about creating competition for themselves in that market. Ford showed that they don't want anything to be anywhere near their GT, and Chevy will not want to create any competition for the C6. You'd figure they wouldn't worry about the cars being cross-shopped, so it's more about protecting their halo car's images.

Slamnasty

Ford's halo car dynamic is definitely different than GM's or D-C's. GM and D-C have halo cars (Vette, Viper) that are appropriately "unattainable" amongst their other cars. Ford's halo car *IS* its attainable car (the Thunderbird was doomed as far back as the 60s). It's unattainble car (GT) is so expensive and limited in production that neither encroaches on the other's turf, which is something GM and D-C both have to be careful of with their new ponies. GM encontered this problem when the Grand National was runing around beating everybody on the street, and Chrysler had its GLHS cars (which were quite shitty IMO if fast).

I think this is why Ford should focus on putting more engineering excellence into the Mustang. Staying purist is great and all on paper, but even the 911 changed to meet evolving demands, as has the Corvette (and Supra and Z) over the past couple decades.

Spartikus

I realize that they are nothing the same, but why else would Ford have made the GT500 weigh nearly 4000lbs? The Mustang GT is already fairly overweight for what it is, so there's really no reason the GT500 has to be so fat. The Ford GT and Mustang GT500 do share nearly the same engine, but other than that I can't figure out why they have 500lbs too much on the GT500. According to Ford, the GT500 IS their new 'halo' car, so what's the deal?

I don't see the Viper as having any possible worries from a potential 3300lb 450hp Challenger. The price difference would be huge and the engines would be nowhere near the same. The Viper is just too "exotic" to really worry about anything else Chrysler may come up with.

I can see how the C6 would have to worry about the Camaro though. Both would share a similar engine with similar outputs and both look great IMO. One would definitely be cheaper too, so if the power/weight is too similar then the Camaro could potentially hurt C6 sales/image etc.

no_really

realistically, unless the Camaro is a two seat sports car instead of the 2+2 GT coupe it has traditionally been, there is no worry that a Corvette buyer will jump ship to the Camaro. Same for the GT500 vs. the Ford GT. For someone who insists there is more to a car than the hp numbers, you sure tend to put a lot of emphasis on the engine output.

I seriously doubt Ford engineers bolted lead plates to the GT500's chassis to keep people buying the Ford GT. More likely, the drivetrain (bigger engine, supercharger, intercooler, transmission, etc.) is responsible for the bulk of the weight gain over the Mustang GT. If they were going to sell the GT500 for a price similar to the Ford GT, the weight would be down. But since that was never the plan, they had to deal with the Mustang chassis, and the fact that the bigger engine was going to add significant weight that couldn't be offset by expensive hi-tech components and materials.

I'd rather have a 2003-2004 Cobra then the GT500, but the Shelby name coupled with the new Mustang body and powered by a 550 hp factory supercharged engine can sell a lot of cars, even if it isn't ideal.

Slamnasty

That may be so, but their respective chassis and driving dynamics (and overall technology) differ immensely.

[QUOTE]...According to Ford, the GT500 IS their new 'halo' car, so what's the deal?

The GT500 is the "halo" version of their halo car. The GT500 would not exist if there was no Mustang. Much in the same way the Zanardi NSX are the most sought after, but least available versions of Acura's halo car.