Honda and Motorsports
03-01-2011, 07:23 PM
#21
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I don't think Tony killed it... quit laughing and hear me out....
Open wheel was dying in the US. It wasn't healthy and needed to go to the hospital. While in the hospital Dr George (actually a nice guy in person) elected to try to cure the cancer by removing the head. Costs were escalating and fan interest was falling. NASCAR was starting on a big wave. I think Tony was right about one thing. Fundamentally CART didn't have enough American drivers. However, just saying we want more domestic drivers doesn't make it happen. Tony was also very worried about costs. Rightly so. At the time an Indy chassis cost about $1m which was close to that of an F1 car. With the rise of NASCAR and their better overall marketing package it was going to be hard to get that kind of money for a car that mostly races in the US. While Indy until very recently was always the biggest race in the US (and even big by F1 standards) NASCAR was doing better on average. At the time it cost much less to run NASCAR. So if you are a sponsor where does your money go? The series with one big race or the one with lots of pretty big races?
The lack of domestic drivers is another issue. NASCAR didn't have as big an issue because all but two NASCAR races are ovals and the US is still the primary training ground for oval racing. We aren't a good training ground for road courses. We used to be but not anymore. The problem is not the lack of good feeder programs as well as many spec classes. In the old days you would start in Formula Vee and learn about conservation of momentum. Next you went to F Ford where you learned about advanced chassis setup and mechanical grip. After that it was Super Vee for wings and then Indy. At all levels you raced in open classes were you really had to learn car setups and tuning. You also raced against many amateur drivers who weren't planning on climbing the ladder, they just mastered their lower classes. Guys like Michael Andretti were racing at SCCA events along with old time FV drivers. Andretti had great natural talent but many of the old time racers could still teach the future champion some tricks.
These days the advanced amateurs and the aspiring champs seem to be on different paths. The amateurs drive by themselves. Their race craft isn't taught to new talent on the track. Instead new blood drivers flow into spec classes where they race against other rich kids. Too often the spec cars are so limited in allowable setups that the young drivers never get a chance to learn what a proper race car really drives like. At least one guy I talked to in IPS cars complained that the old Star Mazda car was so bad that most drivers learn bad driving habits because those habits just happen to be the thing that made the FM car's actually work! Those same tricks slowed the drivers when they got into the better classes.
In the end CART was suffering due to a lack of domestic drivers. The fall of SCCA and the amateur classes in favor of one makes series run with spec cars of marginal setup quality (reliable but not cutting edge as a racing machine) left no place for US drivers to learn their craft in the US. Until that pyramid gets fixed in the US we aren't going to see a lot of great open wheel/road course drivers out of our country. With that we won't be winning in F1 nor will CART have the top talent of the US.
As much as I dislike NASCAR, the oval pyramid is well in tack in the US and they really do have their act together. That and they have the money to pay the top drivers.
One interesting tid bit, NASCAR was in one regard the last of the pure top flight programs. I think it was just last year that NASCAR had a amateur driver, ie a pay to play driver. In F1 and Indy for a while we have had second tier drivers who got to run because they could bring money to the team rather than talent. IE F1 took in rich amateurs before NASCAR. I guess costing less does have some advantages.
BTW, I agree that getting rid of many of the aero appendages has helped F1 but the narrow rear wing, narrow track, stepped nose, and balloon tires still don't look right to me... and I do still love the sound of the turbo Indy cars!
Open wheel was dying in the US. It wasn't healthy and needed to go to the hospital. While in the hospital Dr George (actually a nice guy in person) elected to try to cure the cancer by removing the head. Costs were escalating and fan interest was falling. NASCAR was starting on a big wave. I think Tony was right about one thing. Fundamentally CART didn't have enough American drivers. However, just saying we want more domestic drivers doesn't make it happen. Tony was also very worried about costs. Rightly so. At the time an Indy chassis cost about $1m which was close to that of an F1 car. With the rise of NASCAR and their better overall marketing package it was going to be hard to get that kind of money for a car that mostly races in the US. While Indy until very recently was always the biggest race in the US (and even big by F1 standards) NASCAR was doing better on average. At the time it cost much less to run NASCAR. So if you are a sponsor where does your money go? The series with one big race or the one with lots of pretty big races?
The lack of domestic drivers is another issue. NASCAR didn't have as big an issue because all but two NASCAR races are ovals and the US is still the primary training ground for oval racing. We aren't a good training ground for road courses. We used to be but not anymore. The problem is not the lack of good feeder programs as well as many spec classes. In the old days you would start in Formula Vee and learn about conservation of momentum. Next you went to F Ford where you learned about advanced chassis setup and mechanical grip. After that it was Super Vee for wings and then Indy. At all levels you raced in open classes were you really had to learn car setups and tuning. You also raced against many amateur drivers who weren't planning on climbing the ladder, they just mastered their lower classes. Guys like Michael Andretti were racing at SCCA events along with old time FV drivers. Andretti had great natural talent but many of the old time racers could still teach the future champion some tricks.
These days the advanced amateurs and the aspiring champs seem to be on different paths. The amateurs drive by themselves. Their race craft isn't taught to new talent on the track. Instead new blood drivers flow into spec classes where they race against other rich kids. Too often the spec cars are so limited in allowable setups that the young drivers never get a chance to learn what a proper race car really drives like. At least one guy I talked to in IPS cars complained that the old Star Mazda car was so bad that most drivers learn bad driving habits because those habits just happen to be the thing that made the FM car's actually work! Those same tricks slowed the drivers when they got into the better classes.
In the end CART was suffering due to a lack of domestic drivers. The fall of SCCA and the amateur classes in favor of one makes series run with spec cars of marginal setup quality (reliable but not cutting edge as a racing machine) left no place for US drivers to learn their craft in the US. Until that pyramid gets fixed in the US we aren't going to see a lot of great open wheel/road course drivers out of our country. With that we won't be winning in F1 nor will CART have the top talent of the US.
As much as I dislike NASCAR, the oval pyramid is well in tack in the US and they really do have their act together. That and they have the money to pay the top drivers.
One interesting tid bit, NASCAR was in one regard the last of the pure top flight programs. I think it was just last year that NASCAR had a amateur driver, ie a pay to play driver. In F1 and Indy for a while we have had second tier drivers who got to run because they could bring money to the team rather than talent. IE F1 took in rich amateurs before NASCAR. I guess costing less does have some advantages.
BTW, I agree that getting rid of many of the aero appendages has helped F1 but the narrow rear wing, narrow track, stepped nose, and balloon tires still don't look right to me... and I do still love the sound of the turbo Indy cars!
right now we would've secured promising american drivers if they were immersed in u.s. open wheel racing or F1 but what they've seen the last 15yrs has been nascar so that's where they're aspiring to go. growing up in NYC i never even heard of nascar until i saw days of thunder but i knew CART cause they used to run a street circuit at the meadowlands in jersey. ever since seing my first race with my dad in 88 i was hooked on open wheel racing and still am.
i still blame george for ruining u.s. open wheel racing and eventhough he supposedly meant well we lost a lot more than just sponsors and money.
03-01-2011, 09:06 PM
#22
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The motor is set to be no more powerful than the old Kent motor but far more reliable. 116hp is hard on a Kent motor but nothing for a Honda motor showing 40 years of engine evolution. The kit is up to the high standards people expect from Honda (high standards excludes Honda styling).
The motor is set to be no more powerful than the old Kent motor but far more reliable. 116hp is hard on a Kent motor but nothing for a Honda motor showing 40 years of engine evolution. The kit is up to the high standards people expect from Honda (high standards excludes Honda styling).
This effort by Honda will be dead within 5 years due to lack of buyers and lack of motivation by the beancounters. Ford restarted production of the Kent 4-banger last year after 20 years of being out of production, which motivated this effort by Honda. You think the Fit motor will be in demand 20 years from now? Ford is selling crate motors for cars that have been out of production for decades. For grassroots motorsports use. Honda is selling their bottom-line four-banger motor for the same use, making "reliability" promises on a powerplant that isn't even a decade old. How stupid would you have to be to buy the Honda unit?
Honda "participates" in auto motorsports at a token level. They had a good run in Formula 1 way back when, then dropped off the map. Outside of motorcycles, that's where they still are. They have to do more than sell a single weaksauce motor to be a "motorsports" company like Ford, GM, Porsche, Chrysler, BMW, Ferrari, Audi, etc. etc. Hell, even the world's most boring car company has an engine in a Lotus. What does Honda have? Oh yeah, some other division that sells motorcycles.
If Honda cars benefitted from Honda F1 involvement, it would be put down to "research costs" and they wouldn't have dropped out just because they were never going to be capable of winning a race. The fact that Honda has always considered "motorsports" to be a marketing aside, separate from the business of building and selling the cheapest cars they could pump out that would still sell will forever keep them out of the pantheon of "motorsports manufacturers" like Ford, Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Mercedes, BMW, Lotus, etc.
Seriously, Honda has never been a motorsports auto company. Their motorcycle division is a motorsports company, but the car side of the business is anything but. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. How similar is a street-legal CBR600 to a real race bike? How similar is a Honda Fit to a Formula Ford with a Fit motor? Vs. how similar a C6R is to a Chevy C6? Or a 911 CS to a 911 GT3?
03-01-2011, 10:38 PM
#23
Outside of motorcycles, that's where they still are. They have to do more than sell a single weaksauce motor to be a "motorsports" company like Ford, GM, Porsche, Chrysler, BMW, Ferrari, Audi, etc. etc. Hell, even the world's most boring car company has an engine in a Lotus. What does Honda have? Oh yeah, some other division that sells motorcycles.
Honda is the sole supplier of IRL engines to all teams. And as Chris had said, rarely does it fail in races. Typical clueless Nunco/MY2003GT as always.
P.S. "some other division that sells motorcycles"?
Honda is the world's largest motorcycle manufacturer. "Some other division that sells motorcycles..." LOL! Honda competes in more racing venues than any automaker, including your beloved Ford.
03-02-2011, 04:56 AM
#24
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Nuncosrt8,
Perhaps your post will convince ryan that you and I aren't the same person...
The Fit motor is a great thing for FF. It is sad that Ford didn't have a good motor to replace the Kent. Honda does. The Fit will work just fine. HPE is providing factory support for the racers. The engine is attractive to many buyers because it's stupidly reliable just like the 2L Ford Zetec motor in the F2000 is saving racers money over the old SOHC Ford 2L. It just shows how far production engines have come in 30-40 years.
Honda, while not involved in any top racing series other than Indy (which sadly these days isn't a top series as it was in the recent past) is still involved in racing and has definitely had racing as part of the company. I also agree with those who think the current US line up doesn't reflect that heritage.
Perhaps your post will convince ryan that you and I aren't the same person...
The Fit motor is a great thing for FF. It is sad that Ford didn't have a good motor to replace the Kent. Honda does. The Fit will work just fine. HPE is providing factory support for the racers. The engine is attractive to many buyers because it's stupidly reliable just like the 2L Ford Zetec motor in the F2000 is saving racers money over the old SOHC Ford 2L. It just shows how far production engines have come in 30-40 years.
Honda, while not involved in any top racing series other than Indy (which sadly these days isn't a top series as it was in the recent past) is still involved in racing and has definitely had racing as part of the company. I also agree with those who think the current US line up doesn't reflect that heritage.
03-02-2011, 12:59 PM
#25
Ah, narrow-minded thinking there, Rock. Top racing series? You only count those in the U.S.? SuperGT is to Japan what GT3 is to Europe. It is one of the top racing series in the world, and very prestigious (Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Lambo, and Aston are also involved). And who's the current champ in the GT500 class? None other than the Honda HSV. 
MotoGP is also a world-class racing venue in its field.
Honda also has this, Nunco. What does Ford have?
Also, Ford has been losing to Toyota in NASCAR for the past 3 years.
MotoGP is also a world-class racing venue in its field.
Honda also has this, Nunco. What does Ford have?
Also, Ford has been losing to Toyota in NASCAR for the past 3 years.
03-02-2011, 02:15 PM
#26
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Step, quit being an a$$/yourself. SuperGT is not a top flight international series. NASCAR, god forbid is. Indy, well kind of is (and very much was in the past). Why do those top flight sports cars not race outside of Japan? I never said MotoGP wasn't though they are not cars.
Ford has plenty of racing history though they are currently not heavily involved in any thing other than NASCAR.
Why do you think it's a good idea to be a complete a$$ when replying to people? Seriously, even when you are making a decent point you come off as a complete tool. It's even worse that you have been very wrong in the past.
Mods, why hasn't step been experienced the ban hammer... well perhaps he did since he is afraid to tell us who he thinks he was in the past.
Ford has plenty of racing history though they are currently not heavily involved in any thing other than NASCAR.
Why do you think it's a good idea to be a complete a$$ when replying to people? Seriously, even when you are making a decent point you come off as a complete tool. It's even worse that you have been very wrong in the past.
Mods, why hasn't step been experienced the ban hammer... well perhaps he did since he is afraid to tell us who he thinks he was in the past.
03-02-2011, 09:12 PM
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Nuncosrt8,
Perhaps your post will convince ryan that you and I aren't the same person...
The Fit motor is a great thing for FF. It is sad that Ford didn't have a good motor to replace the Kent. Honda does. The Fit will work just fine. HPE is providing factory support for the racers. The engine is attractive to many buyers because it's stupidly reliable just like the 2L Ford Zetec motor in the F2000 is saving racers money over the old SOHC Ford 2L. It just shows how far production engines have come in 30-40 years.
Honda, while not involved in any top racing series other than Indy (which sadly these days isn't a top series as it was in the recent past) is still involved in racing and has definitely had racing as part of the company. I also agree with those who think the current US line up doesn't reflect that heritage.
Perhaps your post will convince ryan that you and I aren't the same person...
The Fit motor is a great thing for FF. It is sad that Ford didn't have a good motor to replace the Kent. Honda does. The Fit will work just fine. HPE is providing factory support for the racers. The engine is attractive to many buyers because it's stupidly reliable just like the 2L Ford Zetec motor in the F2000 is saving racers money over the old SOHC Ford 2L. It just shows how far production engines have come in 30-40 years.
Honda, while not involved in any top racing series other than Indy (which sadly these days isn't a top series as it was in the recent past) is still involved in racing and has definitely had racing as part of the company. I also agree with those who think the current US line up doesn't reflect that heritage.
The Zetec engine supplanted the Kent, despite complaints that it was too heavy.
The Duratec motor has replaced the Zetec, but there are large numbers of Formula Ford chassis owners who are still enamoured of the original Kent motor.
Both the Zetec and Duratec motors make much more power in stock form than the Fit motor. The Fit motor is competing with the decades-proven Kent motor (that has enough fans to convince Ford to reproduce the motor at this date) so one has to be seriously Honda-centric to think that the Fit motor, competing with a roughly 40-year-old Ford powerplant, is somehow a sigil of a forward-thinking company. How many years will it be before Honda tries to supplant the 90's Ford Zetec? Or the 2000's Duratec? Will it be in 2020? Or will Honda try to supplant Ford's 2000 m.y. production motor in 2030 and will Honda fanbois herald Honda for being hugely "forward-thinking" and "embracing the motorsports community" decades after it's entry might actually have been laudable?
Honda is trying to enter a motorsports venue with an engine already 10 to 20 years behind Ford's "state of the art," with people preferring Ford's legacy powerplant. How embarasing can it get for an automaker? What's Honda's next trick? Offering an "automatic transmission" to dazzle the public?
03-02-2011, 09:59 PM
#28
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http://www.fordracing.com/nascarsprintcup/
And this:
http://www.fordracing.com/nhra/
And this:
http://www.fordracing.com/grandam/
And this:
http://www.falkentire.com/wegetyougo...ughn-Gittin-Jr (don't click this link unless you like idiot drifter morons slowing your PC - VGJ is a very nice guy but not very smart considering his website)
And this:
http://www.fordracing.com/worldrally/
And this:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/register/
And this:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/crateengine/main.asp
And this:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/competition/default.asp
And this:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/home/home.asp
And this:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/circletrack/default.asp
And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ18DkQTRuY
You know this - the supercar you could actually buy and drive, on the road, legally:
http://img2.netcarshow.com/Ford-GT_2...llpaper_01.jpg
Unlike the Honda "new NSX" which only exists in RWD midengine V8 form on the competition track.
Ford's RWD mid-engine V8 isn't raced because it has nothing to prove.
Don't try to compare Honda to Ford. Honda loses every time. And ask Enzo what happens when you imply Ford can't make "sports cars." Sochiro earned his legacy by deeds, not by belittling anyone. Why try to change that, without even being capable of winning so much as a footrace yourself?
You insult the legacy of Sochiro Honda by trying to compare Honda racing heritage to Ford racing heritage. They should each stand on their own. If one were to compare, Ford's involvement in racing shames most auto makers, not just Honda. And Mr. Sochiro Honda deserves more respect than that - he did remarkable things in his time. Henry Ford Sr. thought Mr. Honda was inferior because he was Japanese, but Enzo Ferrari thought Henry Ford Sr. was inferior because he was American. And both Henry Ford and Sochiro Honda succeeded in arenas where Ferrari had enjoyed a historical favoritism. More alike than different, despite themselves.
You might think racism is limited to "white vs. Asian" or "white vs. Black," but the "privileged Italian" Enzo thought he was fundamentally better than "American." However, Enzo Ferrari treated Ferruccio Lamborghini much the same as Henry Ford, so Enzo is less a "racist" than a "classist." Make no mistake, Henry Ford was hardly a saint. One might be surprised to find that Mr. Sochiro Honda was not a saint either.
Quit trying to draw lines based on racism. No lines are necessary.
03-03-2011, 02:37 AM
#29
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Honestly, I think the whole reason Honda has nothing but boring vehicles nowadays is because of the worldwide economic downturn, AND, I think AMERICAN Honda is scared chitless and has way over reacted to the economic situation, that and of course nobody at AMERICAN Honda knows one of the most basic principles of business, risks have to be taken to be successful...
Well it's been a year but I agree
03-03-2011, 04:25 AM
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Twin-cam versions of the Kent have made 200 hp in South African racing trim.
The Zetec engine supplanted the Kent, despite complaints that it was too heavy.
The Duratec motor has replaced the Zetec, but there are large numbers of Formula Ford chassis owners who are still enamoured of the original Kent motor.
Both the Zetec and Duratec motors make much more power in stock form than the Fit motor. The Fit motor is competing with the decades-proven Kent motor (that has enough fans to convince Ford to reproduce the motor at this date) so one has to be seriously Honda-centric to think that the Fit motor, competing with a roughly 40-year-old Ford powerplant, is somehow a sigil of a forward-thinking company. How many years will it be before Honda tries to supplant the 90's Ford Zetec? Or the 2000's Duratec? Will it be in 2020? Or will Honda try to supplant Ford's 2000 m.y. production motor in 2030 and will Honda fanbois herald Honda for being hugely "forward-thinking" and "embracing the motorsports community" decades after it's entry might actually have been laudable?
Honda is trying to enter a motorsports venue with an enigne already 10 to 20 years behind Ford's "state of the art," with people preferring Ford's legacy powerplant. How embarasing can it get for an automaker? What's Honda's next trick? Offering an "automatic transmission" to dazzle the public?
The Zetec engine supplanted the Kent, despite complaints that it was too heavy.
The Duratec motor has replaced the Zetec, but there are large numbers of Formula Ford chassis owners who are still enamoured of the original Kent motor.
Both the Zetec and Duratec motors make much more power in stock form than the Fit motor. The Fit motor is competing with the decades-proven Kent motor (that has enough fans to convince Ford to reproduce the motor at this date) so one has to be seriously Honda-centric to think that the Fit motor, competing with a roughly 40-year-old Ford powerplant, is somehow a sigil of a forward-thinking company. How many years will it be before Honda tries to supplant the 90's Ford Zetec? Or the 2000's Duratec? Will it be in 2020? Or will Honda try to supplant Ford's 2000 m.y. production motor in 2030 and will Honda fanbois herald Honda for being hugely "forward-thinking" and "embracing the motorsports community" decades after it's entry might actually have been laudable?
Honda is trying to enter a motorsports venue with an enigne already 10 to 20 years behind Ford's "state of the art," with people preferring Ford's legacy powerplant. How embarasing can it get for an automaker? What's Honda's next trick? Offering an "automatic transmission" to dazzle the public?
The Fit motor is what the US FF guys really wanted. It's physically similar in size and weight to the old motor. That means club racers don't have to radically change their cars to change to the Fit motor. It also will be tuned to have basically the same power as the Kent. That means people who are happy with the Kent or have a lot of money invested in Kent motors won't have to upgrade. Remember in the US FF is club stuff. If you tell the drivers they are forced to upgrade many will go home instead.
Honda's plan with the Fit motor in FF was to work their way into the US racing scene. Honda was represented in Indy but really nowhere under that except in production based cars (No, Step I'm not talking about motorcycles). HPE saw the place Mazda has in the stepping stone racing seres. Mazda has Spec Miata, some classes where heavily modified Miatas run as well as F Enterprise, F Mazda and F Pro Mazda. The guys in CA seemed to think there was a business case in trying to get into more grass roots racing in the US. Rather than talk about it here, why not read about the Fit motor in FF on SCCA forums? You might learn a thing or two.