Honda/Nissan working to mass-market carbon fiber
07-24-2008, 11:09 PM
#21
[QUOTE=rockville,Jul 24 2008, 08:21 PM] I think CF is expensive when you need to vacuum and autoclave the parts.
07-25-2008, 03:48 AM
#22
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To reduce weight by 40%, they'll have to make singificant portions of the cars out of this new CF... Just making CF body panels isn't going to bring the weight down by 1000lb or so.
07-25-2008, 05:35 AM
#23
Carbon fiber engine block. 
yea
07-25-2008, 06:49 AM
#25
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Good point on paint. For whatever reason when I think CF I think bare material. Probably the bling factor these days.
They'd get a big weight "bang" sooner if they could keep a chassis design longer to pay back on tooling to hydroform complex frames out of aluminum. Strength, weight, AND reduced assembly costs FTW!
They'd get a big weight "bang" sooner if they could keep a chassis design longer to pay back on tooling to hydroform complex frames out of aluminum. Strength, weight, AND reduced assembly costs FTW!
07-25-2008, 07:20 AM
#26
Originally Posted by rockville,Jul 24 2008, 08:21 PM
I think CF is expensive when you need to vacuum and autoclave the parts. However, from what I gather from people I know in the race car business, what makes CF better than FG is really that FG requires a lot more resin. The fiber strength isn't that much different but the ratio of fiber to resin is much better with CF.
i think you are correct on the whole issue of resin to fiber ratio but it's not as extreme as you make it sound.
i'm no expert and still learning, so take all that with a grain of salt.
07-25-2008, 07:23 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by Elistan,Jul 24 2008, 01:48 PM
Honda already have a lot of experience working with CF through their F1 program - hopefully that'll help them kick-start "civilian" use.
Energy absorbing crash structures could still be made out of deformable metals - get in a fender bender and simply replace the front or rear subframe - while the backbone/cockpit/survival cell is made out of very light, very strong CF. (It's not like an S2000 is repairable if you hit a tree going sideways - the damage to the central structure, even with it being bendable steel, is still too much to repair. A CF structure would be similar - enough impact to damage it, and therefore total the car, would likely also total a steel vehicle.)
Energy absorbing crash structures could still be made out of deformable metals - get in a fender bender and simply replace the front or rear subframe - while the backbone/cockpit/survival cell is made out of very light, very strong CF. (It's not like an S2000 is repairable if you hit a tree going sideways - the damage to the central structure, even with it being bendable steel, is still too much to repair. A CF structure would be similar - enough impact to damage it, and therefore total the car, would likely also total a steel vehicle.)
This guy walked away from a wreck (not the one I talk about above.)
07-25-2008, 07:33 AM
#28
Originally Posted by TheDonEffect,Jul 24 2008, 11:09 PM
Ah i c i c. What I meant was that a lot of the costs associated with CF is the sunk cost of setup, but once the machinery is set, the actual material costs is low compared to metal production, especialy since it benefits from all the decades of advancements. Most CF is produced at specialized shops/boutiques who's capacity is no where near that of the metal works industry, thus the substantially higher cost.
CF>fiberglass when it comes to safety, durability, just basically everything but cost.
I could be wrong though, but this is what I gathered.
The onyl thing I worry about is if they start making the chassis out of CF, once the structure gets bent or cracked that would require a new chassis, essentially a new car. Aluminum Jags are very much similar, the way you repair the chassis is to basically keep cutting until there isn't any damage and replace what you cut out. Steel chassis you can pull, straighten, and repair it or do sections where it's really bad. With metal you can weld, but cf you can't, so I dunno if I'd want that for an everyday car because insurance will definitely factor that into the premiums.
CF>fiberglass when it comes to safety, durability, just basically everything but cost.
I could be wrong though, but this is what I gathered.
The onyl thing I worry about is if they start making the chassis out of CF, once the structure gets bent or cracked that would require a new chassis, essentially a new car. Aluminum Jags are very much similar, the way you repair the chassis is to basically keep cutting until there isn't any damage and replace what you cut out. Steel chassis you can pull, straighten, and repair it or do sections where it's really bad. With metal you can weld, but cf you can't, so I dunno if I'd want that for an everyday car because insurance will definitely factor that into the premiums.
carbon fiber itself has never been cheap but ever since this whole "world wide shortage" thing happened (thanks boeing) the price has gone through the roof. the material cost will likely go down. i dont pretend to have anything more than a vague concept of economics but more people producing the raw carbon fiber will certainly take the cost down, but there will always be some costs related to production that can't go away. i guess you could make a robot that lays the carbon fiber but as of right now it is just a very time consuming labor intensive process.
you are totally right though, all of the costs to make the molds and so forth are very expensive. for example, the aluminum buck that they use to make the z06 carbon fiber hood in cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 100k to make.
07-25-2008, 07:35 AM
#29
Originally Posted by s2000raj,Jul 25 2008, 07:23 AM
When the SLR was being tested before release, I think in Belgium, it was hit by some subcompact. The subcompact was ruined, the SLR was T-boned, it sustained minimal damage because of the CF. CF bends without a problem, it's crushing that hurts it, such as putting a vice on a tube of CF.
This guy walked away from a wreck (not the one I talk about above.)
This guy walked away from a wreck (not the one I talk about above.)
07-25-2008, 07:43 AM
#30
Originally Posted by s2000raj,Jul 25 2008, 07:23 AM
When the SLR was being tested before release, I think in Belgium, it was hit by some subcompact. The subcompact was ruined, the SLR was T-boned, it sustained minimal damage because of the CF. CF bends without a problem, it's crushing that hurts it, such as putting a vice on a tube of CF.
This guy walked away from a wreck (not the one I talk about above.)
This guy walked away from a wreck (not the one I talk about above.)
however, hope is not lost as there are hybrid weaves. cured carbon fiber does not like impact, so if you have a flat pane of cured carbon fiber and you hit it with a hammer it is likely to crack. kevlar works much to the opposite. weave the two together and you get the best of both worlds.