budgy

I appreciate your analogies

And I agree wholeheartedly.... but you my friend have it made, you got a solid DD which no offense is not the best looking car out there (not compared to an S2000). But when you want you have 3 nice ones you can take out whenever you want to ride in (or on) hotness.

I daily drive the 'ugly' wagon because I can't afford multiple cars and/or the space to put them all. I could have gotten a used S2000 and drove a hot car every day, but then I would also have to live with the thing for all the shit I can throw in my hatch without thinking twice about.

jimbogxp

Honk if you like torque steer.








I don't.

hyperpm

STI vs MS3. FWD ain't that bad lol!
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LDylZDfmq4 [/media]

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/video-collecti...car-laguna.html

dombey

that was completely not my point. I obviously don't know or care what kind of tires the ms3 comes with. I wasn't trying to compare the ms3 or defend the s2000...I haven't had an s2000 in 18 months and I really don't care - I was trying to speak more broadly to all of the test cars and car tests in general.

My point was that you can't legitimately say one car is better than another when the standardizable pieces are not the same. It's like putting premium gas in one and not in the other. Or, to get more extreme, about running one on a wet track and the other on dry. Or not even running on the same track. You have to standardize the variables or it isn't scientific. And if it isn't science, it's just entertainment.

Think about it. If you had 911 GT3 RS vs. GTR on the ring, but you put 87 in the GTR and it lost by a second, you would have complete outrage. Would it be different if one car comes with cup tires and the other doesn't?

Finally, tires aren't like changing fluids in a car. You can expect significant differences in a car's capabilities based on the tires you select. It isn't some stupid argument I'm making. It would make a difference in this test. Possibly not for the Ms3 vs s2000 component because they happen to be similar. But not ALL of the cars in the test had the same tires and brakes.

I guess for the current test you can still say one car is faster when 100% OEM, but that is meaningless to everyone except mag racers. How many people buy sporty cars (the kinds subjected to test like this) and never deviate from the OEM tires, brakes, alignment, fluids, etc during the life of the car?

NuncoStr8

That's all well and good, but what do you do when cars have different wheel sizes? Or different brake rotor diameters? Or, or, or? How are you going to equalize tires if every car in the comparison uses a different size? What happens when a particular tire is unaailable in the size required for one of the cars? Or a favored brake pad is unavailable in an uncommon fitment?

People want to know how stock cars compare. It's generally accepted one can improve the performance of a vehicle by upgrading tires, brakes, etc. It's not so useful to tell people Car A could be faster than car B if you upgrade X and Y, and Car B has upgraded W and Z. That's what *actually racing* is for.

Chris S

My Miata hit 1.97G (peak) last track outing!

TypeSH

^ on what corner at what track and recorded by what? That is pretty high even for just a peak. The highest I recall seeing in my car is 1.78g in turn 7 at TWS which has some good banking to it.

Chris S

David, it was @ Harris Hill Road, recorded by my TraqMate during Chono-X Round 1. I'll have to wait until I get home to look at the data file to tell you which corner.

My one outing w/ the TraqMate @ TWS, we were going CW and on OEM tires (205/50-17 RE50's), I only hit ~1.33G peak.

budgy

That was kind of my point....that even if you put them on the same tires there are always going to be differences because of the set up of the car.

Fact of the matter comparing every car with stock equipment is the only fair comparison you can truly make, it's important to note the differences in the tires each car comes with so that people can get an idea on why the differences exist.

This is not a magazine like Grassroots Motorsport, it's the magazines job to stay true to what the manufacturer is actually selling to people.

AJ_72

I don't know if the major motorcycle magazines still do this, but in the past, they would attempt to put the same make/model of tire on all their test bikes during a large comparison.

I understand both sides but I would like to see them change out the tires just to remove that variable from the various cars.

As stated earlier, the possible performance difference between the various OEM tires is just too big to ignore in many cases.

At least it gives us something to write about...