S2000 vs. Older Porsche Boxster S.... Have you owned both?
11-04-2016, 07:11 PM
#31
It's very low percentage and from my reading it's overblown and the 10% figure that people seem to quote is inflated, but even if i assume worst case scenario I factor in $2k to take the preventative measure, and I'm ok with that. Anyway, without trying to sound cocky, i'm not worried about the maintenance costs, i can afford to deal with the problems if I like the dynamics of a car.
It sounds very similar to the same people who say that Subaru's EJ257 eating ringlands for breakfast is an anomaly and an overly vocal < 1% of the population...
Even if you could reasonably and dismiss the IMS problems, you still have d-chunk, and a few other known and documented problems.
Save yourself the hassle and go 2009+. If you're willing to pay for maintenance problems, why not just pay for NOT having maintenance problems and get a newer model? Sounds contradictory to me... I can afford to pay for and deal with mechanical problems, but I can't afford the same car with an updated motor that has engineered away all of those said problems that could be worrisome. Right.... cost is not an issue. Ok...
11-04-2016, 08:08 PM
#32
I've owned a 2002 S2000 for 14 years, and a 2006 Cayman S for 4 years. No, not a Boxster, but same engine, transmission, and 987 platform. Both great cars, but the Cayman is on another level - as it should be based on its price when new. In practice, it's faster, better mannered, more refined, and more comfortable. Easier to live with in general, and a better daily driver. More mature, more solid. In a side by side comparison, both cars will win some, but the Porsche wins overall in my book.
The 987's hydraulic steering rack is lifted from the 911, and is widely regarded as one of the best units ever made in terms of feedback - it's fantastic on the track. The 3.4L also has a ton of torque compared to an S2000. The s2000 gearbox has much shorter throws. The S2000 also feels a little lighter (which it is). The brakes on the Porsche are mind boggling - great feel and stopping power. I also have a few mods on both cars. The S2000 has an exhaust and Bilstein PSS9. The Cayman has a turbo (~450hp) and Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics. The S2000 is faster at the autocross. The Cayman kills it at the track (and not just because of the turbo). The S2000 is certainly engaging and a blast to drive, but the Cayman just seems willing to go harder.
Now, reliabilty and maintenance costs. Yes, parts are more for the Porsche. Probably 2-2.5x more expensive (thinking brake parts, OEM to OEM). Reliability on my Cayman has been surprisingly good, but Honda reliability is renowned. In my S2000, in 14 years and 85k miles I've replaced one coil pack and the clutch master cylinder - everything else is just routine maintenance. On the Porsche, I've had a couple of issues owing to the aftermarket turbo (premature cracking of halfshaft boots (heat), failed intercooler water pump, cracked turbo manifold (trackday heat), and premature clutch wear
), but the car has been pretty darn solid considering its been boosted for 40k of its 60k miles. Just did the engine water pump and new accessory pulleys, which is pretty normal for a Porsche, but would be highly unusual for a Honda.
Regarding IMS bearings, a 2007 does not have an easy $2k fix. Older 986 generation Boxsters could have the IMS bearing removed and replaced from the outside with the transmission dropped. 2006 Caymans and Boxsters (Boxsters starting 2007 IIRC) switched to an updated engine with a larger beefed up IMS bearing. The failure rate of these is a fraction of the 986/996 engines that are covered by the class action settlement. Caymans and later Boxsters are not, and will not, be covered by the settlement. Anyhow, with the larger beefed up bearing, it cannot be replaced without tearing down the motor and splitting the case. Which will cost almost as much as a full rebuild - i.e. not worth it. As someone said to me when I was considering the Porsche "If the IMS fails, that day will suck, but the odds are absolutely in your favor that it won't." Also consider that all the message board chatter about IMS is actually helping to lower the price of these cars. But it is something to keep in the back of your mind - what would you do if the engine blew up? Personally, I'd write a check and have it rebuilt or replaced. Not everyone is in a position to do that.
Now, coming back to the Boxster. Assuming I didn't have the Cayman, I don't think I would give up my s2000 for a 2007 Boxster S. Frankly, the styling of the 987 Boxster doesn't excite me enough. The 981 or current Boxster I would give serious consideration to at the right price.
The 987's hydraulic steering rack is lifted from the 911, and is widely regarded as one of the best units ever made in terms of feedback - it's fantastic on the track. The 3.4L also has a ton of torque compared to an S2000. The s2000 gearbox has much shorter throws. The S2000 also feels a little lighter (which it is). The brakes on the Porsche are mind boggling - great feel and stopping power. I also have a few mods on both cars. The S2000 has an exhaust and Bilstein PSS9. The Cayman has a turbo (~450hp) and Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics. The S2000 is faster at the autocross. The Cayman kills it at the track (and not just because of the turbo). The S2000 is certainly engaging and a blast to drive, but the Cayman just seems willing to go harder.
Now, reliabilty and maintenance costs. Yes, parts are more for the Porsche. Probably 2-2.5x more expensive (thinking brake parts, OEM to OEM). Reliability on my Cayman has been surprisingly good, but Honda reliability is renowned. In my S2000, in 14 years and 85k miles I've replaced one coil pack and the clutch master cylinder - everything else is just routine maintenance. On the Porsche, I've had a couple of issues owing to the aftermarket turbo (premature cracking of halfshaft boots (heat), failed intercooler water pump, cracked turbo manifold (trackday heat), and premature clutch wear
), but the car has been pretty darn solid considering its been boosted for 40k of its 60k miles. Just did the engine water pump and new accessory pulleys, which is pretty normal for a Porsche, but would be highly unusual for a Honda.Regarding IMS bearings, a 2007 does not have an easy $2k fix. Older 986 generation Boxsters could have the IMS bearing removed and replaced from the outside with the transmission dropped. 2006 Caymans and Boxsters (Boxsters starting 2007 IIRC) switched to an updated engine with a larger beefed up IMS bearing. The failure rate of these is a fraction of the 986/996 engines that are covered by the class action settlement. Caymans and later Boxsters are not, and will not, be covered by the settlement. Anyhow, with the larger beefed up bearing, it cannot be replaced without tearing down the motor and splitting the case. Which will cost almost as much as a full rebuild - i.e. not worth it. As someone said to me when I was considering the Porsche "If the IMS fails, that day will suck, but the odds are absolutely in your favor that it won't." Also consider that all the message board chatter about IMS is actually helping to lower the price of these cars. But it is something to keep in the back of your mind - what would you do if the engine blew up? Personally, I'd write a check and have it rebuilt or replaced. Not everyone is in a position to do that.
Now, coming back to the Boxster. Assuming I didn't have the Cayman, I don't think I would give up my s2000 for a 2007 Boxster S. Frankly, the styling of the 987 Boxster doesn't excite me enough. The 981 or current Boxster I would give serious consideration to at the right price.
11-04-2016, 08:17 PM
#33
If we're going to call out the D-chunk issue, we might as well call out the F20C for cylinder scoring in #4 (yeah, I'm an old timer around here). Sure, people have seen them, but not in alarming numbers. And what are the odds that a Porsche with a bad cylinder casting has made it 10 years and is still waiting to chunk up? I've heard more talk on this forum about D-chunk than I have on the Porsche forums, which leads me to believe it's not as common as some like to think.
11-04-2016, 09:32 PM
#34
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I looked at both before buying my S2000. I also own an NSX. The Boxter felt somewhere beteeen the two. But two things disqualified it:
1) Rampant depreciation. It is striking that a like-year S2000 goes for the same amount as a Boxter, even though like-year Boxters typically retailed for TWICE as much. At first that sounds like a good deal. But then you realize that those curves will continue. Net, the S2000 holds its value much better.
2) I have several friends who own Boxters. They need repairs much more frequently than S2000's and those repairs cost much more.
All of that being said, if you really like the Boxter better and can afford upkeep, why not do it anyway? YOLO.
1) Rampant depreciation. It is striking that a like-year S2000 goes for the same amount as a Boxter, even though like-year Boxters typically retailed for TWICE as much. At first that sounds like a good deal. But then you realize that those curves will continue. Net, the S2000 holds its value much better.
2) I have several friends who own Boxters. They need repairs much more frequently than S2000's and those repairs cost much more.
All of that being said, if you really like the Boxter better and can afford upkeep, why not do it anyway? YOLO.
People willing to discount and blanket occurrence and data points so dismissively have already made up their minds. Never mind that Porsche actually settled a class action law suit specifically related to these issues.
It sounds very similar to the same people who say that Subaru's EJ257 eating ringlands for breakfast is an anomaly and an overly vocal < 1% of the population...
Even if you could reasonably and dismiss the IMS problems, you still have d-chunk, and a few other known and documented problems.
Save yourself the hassle and go 2009+. If you're willing to pay for maintenance problems, why not just pay for NOT having maintenance problems and get a newer model? Sounds contradictory to me... I can afford to pay for and deal with mechanical problems, but I can't afford the same car with an updated motor that has engineered away all of those said problems that could be worrisome. Right.... cost is not an issue. Ok...
It sounds very similar to the same people who say that Subaru's EJ257 eating ringlands for breakfast is an anomaly and an overly vocal < 1% of the population...
Even if you could reasonably and dismiss the IMS problems, you still have d-chunk, and a few other known and documented problems.
Save yourself the hassle and go 2009+. If you're willing to pay for maintenance problems, why not just pay for NOT having maintenance problems and get a newer model? Sounds contradictory to me... I can afford to pay for and deal with mechanical problems, but I can't afford the same car with an updated motor that has engineered away all of those said problems that could be worrisome. Right.... cost is not an issue. Ok...
I've owned a 2002 S2000 for 14 years, and a 2006 Cayman S for 4 years. No, not a Boxster, but same engine, transmission, and 987 platform. Both great cars, but the Cayman is on another level - as it should be based on its price when new. In practice, it's faster, better mannered, more refined, and more comfortable. Easier to live with in general, and a better daily driver. More mature, more solid. In a side by side comparison, both cars will win some, but the Porsche wins overall in my book.
The 987's hydraulic steering rack is lifted from the 911, and is widely regarded as one of the best units ever made in terms of feedback - it's fantastic on the track. The 3.4L also has a ton of torque compared to an S2000. The s2000 gearbox has much shorter throws. The S2000 also feels a little lighter (which it is). The brakes on the Porsche are mind boggling - great feel and stopping power. I also have a few mods on both cars. The S2000 has an exhaust and Bilstein PSS9. The Cayman has a turbo (~450hp) and Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics. The S2000 is faster at the autocross. The Cayman kills it at the track (and not just because of the turbo). The S2000 is certainly engaging and a blast to drive, but the Cayman just seems willing to go harder.
Now, reliabilty and maintenance costs. Yes, parts are more for the Porsche. Probably 2-2.5x more expensive (thinking brake parts, OEM to OEM). Reliability on my Cayman has been surprisingly good, but Honda reliability is renowned. In my S2000, in 14 years and 85k miles I've replaced one coil pack and the clutch master cylinder - everything else is just routine maintenance. On the Porsche, I've had a couple of issues owing to the aftermarket turbo (premature cracking of halfshaft boots (heat), failed intercooler water pump, cracked turbo manifold (trackday heat), and premature clutch wear ), but the car has been pretty darn solid considering its been boosted for 40k of its 60k miles. Just did the engine water pump and new accessory pulleys, which is pretty normal for a Porsche, but would be highly unusual for a Honda.
Regarding IMS bearings, a 2007 does not have an easy $2k fix. Older 986 generation Boxsters could have the IMS bearing removed and replaced from the outside with the transmission dropped. 2006 Caymans and Boxsters (Boxsters starting 2007 IIRC) switched to an updated engine with a larger beefed up IMS bearing. The failure rate of these is a fraction of the 986/996 engines that are covered by the class action settlement. Caymans and later Boxsters are not, and will not, be covered by the settlement. Anyhow, with the larger beefed up bearing, it cannot be replaced without tearing down the motor and splitting the case. Which will cost almost as much as a full rebuild - i.e. not worth it. As someone said to me when I was considering the Porsche "If the IMS fails, that day will suck, but the odds are absolutely in your favor that it won't." Also consider that all the message board chatter about IMS is actually helping to lower the price of these cars. But it is something to keep in the back of your mind - what would you do if the engine blew up? Personally, I'd write a check and have it rebuilt or replaced. Not everyone is in a position to do that.
Now, coming back to the Boxster. Assuming I didn't have the Cayman, I don't think I would give up my s2000 for a 2007 Boxster S. Frankly, the styling of the 987 Boxster doesn't excite me enough. The 981 or current Boxster I would give serious consideration to at the right price.
The 987's hydraulic steering rack is lifted from the 911, and is widely regarded as one of the best units ever made in terms of feedback - it's fantastic on the track. The 3.4L also has a ton of torque compared to an S2000. The s2000 gearbox has much shorter throws. The S2000 also feels a little lighter (which it is). The brakes on the Porsche are mind boggling - great feel and stopping power. I also have a few mods on both cars. The S2000 has an exhaust and Bilstein PSS9. The Cayman has a turbo (~450hp) and Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics. The S2000 is faster at the autocross. The Cayman kills it at the track (and not just because of the turbo). The S2000 is certainly engaging and a blast to drive, but the Cayman just seems willing to go harder.
Now, reliabilty and maintenance costs. Yes, parts are more for the Porsche. Probably 2-2.5x more expensive (thinking brake parts, OEM to OEM). Reliability on my Cayman has been surprisingly good, but Honda reliability is renowned. In my S2000, in 14 years and 85k miles I've replaced one coil pack and the clutch master cylinder - everything else is just routine maintenance. On the Porsche, I've had a couple of issues owing to the aftermarket turbo (premature cracking of halfshaft boots (heat), failed intercooler water pump, cracked turbo manifold (trackday heat), and premature clutch wear
), but the car has been pretty darn solid considering its been boosted for 40k of its 60k miles. Just did the engine water pump and new accessory pulleys, which is pretty normal for a Porsche, but would be highly unusual for a Honda.Regarding IMS bearings, a 2007 does not have an easy $2k fix. Older 986 generation Boxsters could have the IMS bearing removed and replaced from the outside with the transmission dropped. 2006 Caymans and Boxsters (Boxsters starting 2007 IIRC) switched to an updated engine with a larger beefed up IMS bearing. The failure rate of these is a fraction of the 986/996 engines that are covered by the class action settlement. Caymans and later Boxsters are not, and will not, be covered by the settlement. Anyhow, with the larger beefed up bearing, it cannot be replaced without tearing down the motor and splitting the case. Which will cost almost as much as a full rebuild - i.e. not worth it. As someone said to me when I was considering the Porsche "If the IMS fails, that day will suck, but the odds are absolutely in your favor that it won't." Also consider that all the message board chatter about IMS is actually helping to lower the price of these cars. But it is something to keep in the back of your mind - what would you do if the engine blew up? Personally, I'd write a check and have it rebuilt or replaced. Not everyone is in a position to do that.
Now, coming back to the Boxster. Assuming I didn't have the Cayman, I don't think I would give up my s2000 for a 2007 Boxster S. Frankly, the styling of the 987 Boxster doesn't excite me enough. The 981 or current Boxster I would give serious consideration to at the right price.
If we're going to call out the D-chunk issue, we might as well call out the F20C for cylinder scoring in #4 (yeah, I'm an old timer around here). Sure, people have seen them, but not in alarming numbers. And what are the odds that a Porsche with a bad cylinder casting has made it 10 years and is still waiting to chunk up? I've heard more talk on this forum about D-chunk than I have on the Porsche forums, which leads me to believe it's not as common as some like to think.
11-05-2016, 02:35 AM
#35
11-05-2016, 02:38 AM
#36
I looked at both before buying my S2000. I also own an NSX. The Boxter felt somewhere beteeen the two. But two things disqualified it:
1) Rampant depreciation. It is striking that a like-year S2000 goes for the same amount as a Boxter, even though like-year Boxters typically retailed for TWICE as much. At first that sounds like a good deal. But then you realize that those curves will continue. Net, the S2000 holds its value much better.
2) I have several friends who own Boxters. They need repairs much more frequently than S2000's and those repairs cost much more.
All of that being said, if you really like the Boxter better and can afford upkeep, why not do it anyway? YOLO.
1) Rampant depreciation. It is striking that a like-year S2000 goes for the same amount as a Boxter, even though like-year Boxters typically retailed for TWICE as much. At first that sounds like a good deal. But then you realize that those curves will continue. Net, the S2000 holds its value much better.
2) I have several friends who own Boxters. They need repairs much more frequently than S2000's and those repairs cost much more.
All of that being said, if you really like the Boxter better and can afford upkeep, why not do it anyway? YOLO.
Repairs could be costly depending on what breaks. Obviously no sports car on the market will have as low upkeep and repair costs as a S2000 with the exception of the humble Miata where used transmissions cost 150 bucks.
11-05-2016, 03:38 AM
#37
Informative thread. I suspect we all get a little urge to change cars now and then. This thread persuades me to resist the temptation. If money were no issue I'd probably succumb.
11-05-2016, 06:13 AM
#39
It's essentially a casting defect in the cylinder liner creating a weak spot. It leads to a chunk of the liner breaking off in a "D" shape and making sweet sweet love to the inside of the motor. I tend to think metallurgical failures like this would present themselves early in the engine's life, not 10 years down the road. Not a huge concern in my book. . .
11-05-2016, 06:15 AM
#40
Agreed! But I'd look at a GTS specifically. Slight power bump, and performance options were discounted in the GTS MSRP.