I would have to disagree with you.

I drive my S2000 in the winter with Blizzaks in stock sizes, front and rear. It won't outhandle anything AWD with A/S tires, in my experience. Why? The car is too light and the tires are too big (on the rear) for proper traction. It's okay in snow (not great) but it's pretty bad on ice. I've been next to lots of AWD vehicles running A/S tires and they smoke me off the line.

If I ran 205s front and rear, I'd probably do a lot better in the snow and ice. More pressure on the tire contact patch would give me better grip. I do have a set of 225s for next year so we'll see how they do.

Yes, my S2000 will generally outbrake a vehicle with A/S tires in the winter. However, pure traction off the line (and through the corners) still favors the AWD vehicles by a significant margin. With the systems they have today, with full stability control, people can just "drive" and their AWD system and VSA/TC controls do all the work for them. Plus, these new "winter A/S tires" (basically, softer and more pliable than a typical A/S tire) are giving people better winter traction, even though those tires are still inferior to a full winter tire.

 

Why did you get tires that were too big? I know that you probably got stock size, but that was something that you didn't have to do.

Since when is acceleration part of "handling"? I never claimed that a RWD on snows would out accelerate an AWD car on AS tires.

It is certainly more work, and you have to be comfortable with the fact that you will get sideways at times, but I still stand firmly behind my previous post, that as far a handling is concerned, I'd take my Miata on snow tires over the type of standard A/S tires that most people with only one set of tires would have. IMO accelerating is the least important factor in safely driving in the snow.

 

I'm merely giving perspective on using the "proper" tire sizes and how it affects the car in winter. I had never driven an S2000 in the winter so I had no idea how well they'd work. Feedback seemed to indicate the S2000 was a monster in the snow with good tires but either those people are using ultra-skinnies (compared to stock - probably AP1 sizes) or they're driving in wimpy conditions.

Comfortable with getting sideways on snow and ice? On public roads? In traffic? That's ridiculous and it's a great way to hit someone. Being "out of control" so you can "be faster" is hardly outhandling someone. You're just being more dumb. If they were willing to get sideways in their AWD vehicle, they'd probably smoke you badly. They're just too smart to do it...

Conditions on roads here can change completely every 100 ft. My S2000 might "handle" better (great weight distribution, LSD, etc, etc) but it won't actually be any faster than the Subie with A/S tires through a corner. Not even close. With a modern AWD system sorting out traction, they are finding grip if it can be found and using it the best way possible. The Acura MDX is very popular here and people on those are very quick in the snow with standard A/S tires - they leave me for dead through a corner. Subies do the same thing.

Also, the importance of acceleration is HUGE in the snow since you may have to clear an intersection or get yourself out of someone's way that has far less traction and is sliding towards you. It's as much a defensive mechanism than anything.

I notice you live in SoCal. When have you owned and driven a Miata on snow tires through a complete winter?

 

I am not saying that you should play "drift king" around every corner, I simply meant that with RWD it you are trying to accelerate while cornering, there is a good chance that the rear end will step out. My point was that many people would be too nervous driving and having the rear step out at all. I certainly would not advocate driving like an idiot, and sliding all over the place on public roads no matter the circumstance. My point is that if you are comfortable with having the rear end step out, you will feel that a RWD car is more than stable enough. A simple correction, and you are pointed in the direction that you want. As for acceleration, there is plenty to be had, and certainly enough to get out of the way of anything that you had a chance of getting out of the way of.

I will never try to argue that a RWD car is faster in most snow situations than an AWD car because it wouldn't be. The AWD car's ability to accelerate would allow it to run away every time there was a straight. That said, Who the hell would be trying to race on public roads in the snow. Again, my entire point has to do with Handling and braking. Situations where the over-confident person in the AWD car has gotten up to speed, and suddenly needs to either stop quickly or avoid an obstacle. In those situations, I am taking the car on snow tires.

I will not argue against you as far as powering out of corners, or off the line acceleration, because those situations are where AWD helps you. There are VERY FEW AWD cars that would have an advantage going into a corner, or mid corner off-throttle. And most of those that do use the brakes to help control the car, not the AWD, and there are RWD cars that do that as well. For the average driver, AWD probably is easier to drive since you just let the car do it's thing, where in the RWD car, your inputs could cause a spin if done wrong.

I lived in Northern WA for several years, and have driven several cars in the snow including a Forester on fresh AS tires, and My Miata on fresh and used snow tires. I very much preferred the Miata. The only place the Forester was better was in snow deeper than 8 inches, and it was an issue of ground clearance, not traction. I took numerous trips to the mountains to snowboard, and generally tried to time them during or the day after a big storm.

I will not argue that for most people an AWD car would be easier, but to someone who knows how to drive, the RWD car on proper tires will be the car stopping and turning better.

 

So it's about the driver, not the car...

 

This argument seems way too obvious to me. Then again, I've driven RWD cars with snow tires for the last half decade so I know how it really is.

A RWD car with snow tires will be better than an anything-else-wheel-drive car with all-seasons in just about every category save for initial acceleration. Which wheels receive power has absolutely nothing to do with turning/stopping traction...only the tire compound matters at that point.

 

In my experience, you may be ignoring a few factors:

1. AWD systems today generally are linked to stability and traction control. Hence, they have four tires hunting SIMULTANEOUSLY for the greatest amount of traction. What does my S2000 have? Two, on the same end of the car. AWD > RWD in that case.

2. Depending on the vehicle, specifically, those with locking differentials, having some tires spinning (even with minimal traction to be had) is often better than them not spinning at all. So, one set of tires with lots of traction + one set of tires with minimal or moderate traction > one set of tires with lots of traction. AWD > RWD in that case.

3. Directional control is potentially superior with AWD since your rear wheels can still drive the car while the fronts pull the car and/or help establish direction. AWD > RWD in that case.

When stopping, yes, RWD with winters will win every time, all other things equal - it's a pure traction equation. In cornering, no, for reason #1 and #3 listed above (dynamics apply in a different way). Heck, even #2 plays in, potentially.

Rally cars are AWD for a reason. In loose or poor traction environments, having four wheels scrabbling for traction is almost always better than just two. The wrinkle of having different rubber/tire compounds, in my experience, doesn't change things nearly as much as you've indicated.

Put a bunch of ice strips that are ten feet in length along a winding road and try and keep a RWD car straight on it. It'll be way tougher than the AWD vehicle that can catch and grab simultaneously, apportioning torque where the traction is to keep the vehicle stabilized and pointed in the right direction while maintaining speed.

 

Valid points, for sure. I should not have made such a blanketing statement.

In my experience, the *only* times I have issues in winter driving are the following:

1. Coming to a dead stop on an uphill slope covered in ice (all three conditions at once...ouch)

2. The snow cover is so high that the car will not clear it.


In both of these cases (definitely #2) the AWD car with all-seasons would be hosed as well.

I remember driving my VR4 with all-seasons and it was nice on the accelerating end. The stopping was still a bit scary (also partially because the damn car was a 3800-lb tank) whereas in my Trans Am/S2000 with snow tires it is far more confidence-inspiring in both handling and stopping. Of course the final factor here is the driver. An inexperienced driver can have all the things in the world going for them and still manage to plow into a ditch.

 

Agreed with you there. That dead stop on a hill covered in ice is brutal!

 

few years back i was going uphill next to a 20+ year old full size van. it was going very slow but it was climbing the hill without a problem...except a local cop was driving right behind him and light turned red but no body around. he got stuck.