Went car shopping yesterday
12-23-2006, 07:56 PM
#11
Registered User
Not sure what your money situation is, but the GT3 (IMO FTW).
I don't want to cut down any of these cars, but the Cayman S seems a bit low-po for the money. It may be better than the numbers, but like OP have said you'd get used to the power and (IMO) especially with a sub-300hp car more so than a 400hp car like the C6 (we all know the new M3 will be 400hp+ and the 335i can be tuned easier than a Cayman S for strong HP gains far easier).
I'd consider a 911S but the GT3 is (IMO) the one to get if you can afford it. Not saying it's price is easy to swallow and most people won't get beyond the price. But if it's a possibility then (IMO) it's worth a thought.
Used GT3 from KBB are ~$78K-$88K so I imagine a 1-2 year old 997 GT3 may be in the realm of a loaded (new) Cayman S.
The GT3 is similar weight to a Cayman S but similar power to a C6 (I know less TQ, but probably you'll get a big kick out of the GT3 vs a little kick from the Cayman S).
CAR magazine said the 997 GT3 415hp is the best 911 ever, I can't type all that CAR mag said about the GT3, but they liked it better than the 911 turbo 480hp for several reasons. here is just one little quote:
the quote above is hard to explain but they said the 997 turbo is too easy to drive quick the AWD is too sure-footed and too confident that you can be going insane speeds and don't feel like it, while the GT3 (IMO) like the S2000 is still fun at 7/10th.
They went on to say the GT3 is the best street/track car ever. Meaning equally at home on either. The Exige S (for example) you give up so much street livability, but the GT3 with the PASM suspension does not give up anything of what you experience in a 911 S.
I don't want to cut down any of these cars, but the Cayman S seems a bit low-po for the money. It may be better than the numbers, but like OP have said you'd get used to the power and (IMO) especially with a sub-300hp car more so than a 400hp car like the C6 (we all know the new M3 will be 400hp+ and the 335i can be tuned easier than a Cayman S for strong HP gains far easier).
I'd consider a 911S but the GT3 is (IMO) the one to get if you can afford it. Not saying it's price is easy to swallow and most people won't get beyond the price. But if it's a possibility then (IMO) it's worth a thought.
Used GT3 from KBB are ~$78K-$88K so I imagine a 1-2 year old 997 GT3 may be in the realm of a loaded (new) Cayman S.
The GT3 is similar weight to a Cayman S but similar power to a C6 (I know less TQ, but probably you'll get a big kick out of the GT3 vs a little kick from the Cayman S).
CAR magazine said the 997 GT3 415hp is the best 911 ever, I can't type all that CAR mag said about the GT3, but they liked it better than the 911 turbo 480hp for several reasons. here is just one little quote:
...new GT3 is the ultimate 911...you don't have to be staring down the barrel of the biggest accident to feel as though you're really pushing on....Just scary enough, in other words.
They went on to say the GT3 is the best street/track car ever. Meaning equally at home on either. The Exige S (for example) you give up so much street livability, but the GT3 with the PASM suspension does not give up anything of what you experience in a 911 S.
12-23-2006, 08:17 PM
#12
Thread Starter
Raj, have you ever driven a GT3 or Cayman S? I have, and loved both. Unfortunately, the Cayman S is at the upper end of my price range (as much as I want one, it would be a stretch and I have a hard time justifying it), and a GT3 is out of the question. The Porsche salesman was also saying the GT3 makes a very poor street car, since it crashes over bumps. I only drove my friend's GT3 on a very smooth track, so I can't comment there. Also, the mid-engine configuration of the Cayman is def. an advantage w/ respect to handling.
Just for background, until I bought my first S2000 2/01 I had a 480rwhp/480rwtq. Supra. Kept the S2000 stock until shortly after warranty expired, then added a Vortech S/C. I've been w/ a stock '03 now for about a year, and have no desire to go FI. I like fast cars, but control, handling, feel, and visceral experiences are more important to me than raw hp.
I'm pretty certain that I'd be content w/ the Cayman S' power for many years to come (perhaps indefinitely). Yes, the price is high for the hp, but this car IMO is more than the sum of its parts. That said, I'd also be very happy w/ a C6 Z51, but if cost wasn't a factor I'd choose the Cayman S in a heartbeat.
Just for background, until I bought my first S2000 2/01 I had a 480rwhp/480rwtq. Supra. Kept the S2000 stock until shortly after warranty expired, then added a Vortech S/C. I've been w/ a stock '03 now for about a year, and have no desire to go FI. I like fast cars, but control, handling, feel, and visceral experiences are more important to me than raw hp.
I'm pretty certain that I'd be content w/ the Cayman S' power for many years to come (perhaps indefinitely). Yes, the price is high for the hp, but this car IMO is more than the sum of its parts. That said, I'd also be very happy w/ a C6 Z51, but if cost wasn't a factor I'd choose the Cayman S in a heartbeat.
12-23-2006, 08:46 PM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern Part of Heaven
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What happened to the Boxster S? Seems like there is so much raving for the Cayman S here that the updated '07 Boxster S has been forgotten (yes, I understand the inherent benefits of a closed chassis). I'd save the $5K and get a lightly optioned Boxster S for around $60K. I drove a C6 VERY briefly at The Drive in Las Vegas and came away with an impression that the car, while bloody fast and a fine handler, just felt cheap. The interior, doors, and, especially seats, just feld cheap. The gearbox also felt a bit trucklike. I think my interest in Corvettes ended there, though if I was actually shopping the cars, I'd give it a more thorough look.
12-23-2006, 09:16 PM
#15
Thread Starter
I've extensively driven an older Boxster S, and while appreciating that it didn't have the 295 hp engine, it just didn't have as good a feel as the Cayman S. I thought it was maybe a little better than my S2000, but only enough to justify maybe a $5K price premium.
Raj, the mid-engine is far superior. It's well-known that Porsche intentionally cripples the Cayman S to prevent it from encroaching on 911 territory, protecting its position at the top of the P-car food chain.
Put a 3.8 engine and an LSD in the Cayman, then compare!
Raj, the mid-engine is far superior. It's well-known that Porsche intentionally cripples the Cayman S to prevent it from encroaching on 911 territory, protecting its position at the top of the P-car food chain.
Put a 3.8 engine and an LSD in the Cayman, then compare!
12-24-2006, 12:35 AM
#16
Registered User
when you say "better" than the s2000, what do you mean? im not saying you're wrong, id just like to get ur opinion.
im also surprised that more people dont like the BS over the CS. sky above you, more exciting to drive imo and cheaper. the CS doesn't even have a moonroof.
im also surprised that more people dont like the BS over the CS. sky above you, more exciting to drive imo and cheaper. the CS doesn't even have a moonroof.
12-24-2006, 04:58 AM
#17
Registered User
Originally Posted by Chris S,Dec 23 2006, 10:16 PM
Porsche intentionally cripples the Cayman S to prevent it from encroaching on 911 territory, protecting its position at the top of the P-car food chain.
Put a 3.8 engine and an LSD in the Cayman, then compare!
Put a 3.8 engine and an LSD in the Cayman, then compare!
I agree the rear engine has its drawbacks, but it seems as though Porsche has mastered the layout and (I believe) they have won un-told races with the layout. I know mid-engine is better and Porsche best effort the CGT is midengine. But the fact is we're talking about the current 295hp CS which may be darn hard to tune into a GT3 beater and if you could it would cost a bundle.
IMO the one good thing about rear engine layout is that it gives you a rear seat space in the same size package of a Cayman S. The GT3 is 2 inches longer and 1 inch wider than the Cayman S. But in the GT3 there is no rear seats so it's an empty space which IMO does no good. So what I mean is if you want/need little tiny seat spaces the rear engine layout gives them to you thus the 911 has a benifit from it's sub-optimal engine placement. I agree if you want to argue would the GT3 be getter with a mid-engine (it doesn't have rear seats anyway) or would the Cayman S be better than the GT3 if it had the same power? Yes to both, but talking about reality what they have not what they should have.
12-24-2006, 05:18 AM
#18
Registered User
OK I'll stop talking about the GT3.
I have thought about this question (C6 vs Cayman S) and it does come down to dollars. You can get a C6 with $20K in the glovebox. The Corvette is still a nice car even with its faults. The CS costs $20K more, that's a good deal of money for a well and truly slower car.
I don't have a problem with paying more for less. The S2000 is not a super quick car, you can get a quicker EVO for same price. And you can get a used Z06 for the price of a new S2000. Many people buy a slower car (I did) and I'm not going "woe is me I'm slower than an EVO or Corvette", it doesn't matter b/c the S2000 is about fun driving not about how quickly it can get me to work.
Even in a S2000 you have to hold back on public roads, I mean you could have an Enzo and likely not get to work any quicker or if you do you risk a BIG ticket.
You are buying a street car (not a race car) and you don't necessarly want to be driving 0-60 in 4.1 seconds. A car like the Cayman S may be just right, it can get you moving quickly but it's just weak enough that you have to work at getting up to speed which is fun and like I said public roads there is not prize for the fastest car.
I have thought about this question (C6 vs Cayman S) and it does come down to dollars. You can get a C6 with $20K in the glovebox. The Corvette is still a nice car even with its faults. The CS costs $20K more, that's a good deal of money for a well and truly slower car.
I don't have a problem with paying more for less. The S2000 is not a super quick car, you can get a quicker EVO for same price. And you can get a used Z06 for the price of a new S2000. Many people buy a slower car (I did) and I'm not going "woe is me I'm slower than an EVO or Corvette", it doesn't matter b/c the S2000 is about fun driving not about how quickly it can get me to work.
Even in a S2000 you have to hold back on public roads, I mean you could have an Enzo and likely not get to work any quicker or if you do you risk a BIG ticket.
You are buying a street car (not a race car) and you don't necessarly want to be driving 0-60 in 4.1 seconds. A car like the Cayman S may be just right, it can get you moving quickly but it's just weak enough that you have to work at getting up to speed which is fun and like I said public roads there is not prize for the fastest car.
12-24-2006, 05:51 AM
#19
Thread Starter
dyhppy, "better" in comparison to an older Boxster S is highly subjective depending on how you weight various differences. The Boxster S is more comfortable, has much more torque, nicer interior (IMO), & sounds better. OTOH, I feel the S2000 is a bit more visceral experience, feels more racy, and has a stiffer chassis - more fun to tear down your favorite twisty road. Basically, I'd take the S2000 for weekend fun, and the Boxster S for daily driving/traveling.
I didn't drive an '07 Boxster S w/ the 295 hp engine, since I guess I'm just too much in love w/ the CS's beatiful lines, better handling, and added interior space. It was pretty clear before I'd even left sight of the dealership, though, that the incremental chassis stiffness was very noticeable. Maybe I'm crazy, but the addition of a solid roof almost makes it seem like a bargain mid-engine exotic.
Raj, I have no use for rear seats and no extra $$$ for buying a more expensive car than the Cayman S, so we can debate their relative merits all day. I was really impressed w/ the Cayman's luggage space - it's actually a pretty practical car for a 2 seater! My dad had a '79 911 SC, and our family (Dad, Mom, my brother and I) actually took a weekend vacation from Houston to Galveston in it, but it was a bit tight for comfort!
Re: your last post, BINGO! You hit the nail on the head. There's enough traffic and police presence around here that I don't need the fastest car, just the funnest one at real world speeds (as well as at the occassional HPDE weekend).
I recently drove a new M5 from my house, and it was impressive but way overkill for around here. I came very close to getting in a lot of trouble w/ it! The additional power of the Vette may be nice, but I'd pick it over the CS primarily for the price and removable roof, not the extra power.
I didn't drive an '07 Boxster S w/ the 295 hp engine, since I guess I'm just too much in love w/ the CS's beatiful lines, better handling, and added interior space. It was pretty clear before I'd even left sight of the dealership, though, that the incremental chassis stiffness was very noticeable. Maybe I'm crazy, but the addition of a solid roof almost makes it seem like a bargain mid-engine exotic.
Raj, I have no use for rear seats and no extra $$$ for buying a more expensive car than the Cayman S, so we can debate their relative merits all day. I was really impressed w/ the Cayman's luggage space - it's actually a pretty practical car for a 2 seater! My dad had a '79 911 SC, and our family (Dad, Mom, my brother and I) actually took a weekend vacation from Houston to Galveston in it, but it was a bit tight for comfort!
Re: your last post, BINGO! You hit the nail on the head. There's enough traffic and police presence around here that I don't need the fastest car, just the funnest one at real world speeds (as well as at the occassional HPDE weekend).
I recently drove a new M5 from my house, and it was impressive but way overkill for around here. I came very close to getting in a lot of trouble w/ it! The additional power of the Vette may be nice, but I'd pick it over the CS primarily for the price and removable roof, not the extra power.
12-24-2006, 07:05 AM
#20
Former Moderator
I've now got 6,000 miles on the ODO of my 2007 CS, and the car keeps getting better and better 
- more throttle response, better grip - I love it. And OMG does this car come to life when the temperature drops below 50 degrees more than any other car I've owned!
Chris - nice write up
As for the GT3, it is not meant to be a street car at all - no way. That has nothing to do with ride comfort or anything like that. The car sits low to the ground, so for those of you with lowered S2000's imagine driving your car around with another few inches added to the front end. The GT3 is the only car we cannot get into our Porsche showroom - there is a slight incline from the parking lot to the showroom and the only way to get it in is to take the bumper off. 997's with PASM and Aero Kits and CGT's are no problem, and those are the lowest cars of all the ones we carry: Toyota, Honda, Scion, Mini, BMW, VW, Hyundai, Jaguar, Audi and Porsche.
We have two GT3 customers who have attempted to drive theirs on the street - one ended up loosing his front bumper in a parking lot and the other slid off the road into a ditch (cold night). I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't want to drive a GT3 on the street.
- more throttle response, better grip - I love it. And OMG does this car come to life when the temperature drops below 50 degrees more than any other car I've owned!Chris - nice write up
As for the GT3, it is not meant to be a street car at all - no way. That has nothing to do with ride comfort or anything like that. The car sits low to the ground, so for those of you with lowered S2000's imagine driving your car around with another few inches added to the front end. The GT3 is the only car we cannot get into our Porsche showroom - there is a slight incline from the parking lot to the showroom and the only way to get it in is to take the bumper off. 997's with PASM and Aero Kits and CGT's are no problem, and those are the lowest cars of all the ones we carry: Toyota, Honda, Scion, Mini, BMW, VW, Hyundai, Jaguar, Audi and Porsche.
We have two GT3 customers who have attempted to drive theirs on the street - one ended up loosing his front bumper in a parking lot and the other slid off the road into a ditch (cold night). I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't want to drive a GT3 on the street.