Saki GT

Talks about Honda's delay on the Civic and recent performance in general, a good sign that Honda is waking up? Honda hasn't had a hit for a while now - perhaps putting the brakes on the current Civic and putting better thought into the product will get the company back on track?

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/05/whats-...everything.html



I don't think Honda has had a single model hit its initial sales target for the past ten years. Hopefully this is a sign that the company is looking to get back on track.

Lithium Lotus

I completely agree. While I am not a honda fanboy, I do miss what the Integra Type-R was.

JonBoy

Honestly, I'm sick of this baloney. There is a ton of guesswork and made-up "facts" in that article based on single-line comments from different people, some of them self-professed "experts" that are just jumping on a bandwagon.

The Civic redesign was initiated by the new CEO, not because they missed the mark the first time but because he had a new vision for how the cars should be developed and designed. The Civic still outsells (by a wide margin) everything in its class except the Corolla, which sells regardless of how bad it is as a driver's car. The Accord is also still way up there and the CR-V has trounced virtually everything out there (the Edge is giving it a run this year, thanks to heavy incentives). This is all without heavy incentives (still, by far, the lowest in the industry).

Delaying the Civic isn't an admission that it isn't perfect but rather that it didn't match what the new CEO is hoping to get out of Honda's design teams. Talk about a major leap of logic by the writer.

The current Civic is "only" rated for 36mpg on the highway but, like most smaller Hondas, it does far better in real life, as I've mentioned on here (through personal experience) many times, easily hitting 40+mpg on the highway. Personally, I don't care how the EPA rates my cars. What does matter is how they do when I drive them. There are thousands of Equinox owners complaining about gas mileage that is well below EPA estimates on the highway. That's one thing Honda doesn't want on its hands.

They can talk about Honda's woes all they want but the fact is that their vehicles are 1st or 2nd in virtually every category they compete in. Accord, Civic, CR-V, Odyssey, and Pilot are all at or near the top of their categories. People may not think they're perfect but they do believe they're as good or better than anything else out there.

They admit that Honda sales are still very good, they still sell a ton of bread and butter cars (ie, most Honda vehicles) and yet somehow Honda now has lost its way and people aren't going to stand for it.

Sure, us enthusiasts are ticked that they've taken most of the fun vehicles away but we're a minority of Honda buyers. The majority still just want relatively simple, reliable, efficient, good-to-drive cars that will go 200K miles. Honda still makes those cars.

Their engineering analysis was also off, ignoring the issues many manufacturers have had (or are starting to get) with direct injection engines. They're also ignoring that Honda is making super-efficient engines already that are as good or better than the competition (power and fuel efficiency) without some of the "whiz-bang" technology that isn't quite proven.

Yes, Honda has lagged on some fronts. They're only just getting a 6AT transmission into the Honda lineup this year (new Odyssey) to trickle down to the other vehicles. The styling isn't for everyone but that's subjective so less of an issue. Their cars still handle well for their classes and they're still quite fuel efficient in real life.

I think where I agree with the article is that Honda hasn't SURPRISED the industry in quite a while. They haven't just dropped a bombshell of a design or idea and blew everyone away. That's what they need to get back.

Acura, on the other hand, is screwed up. Fundamentally, their vehicles are generally quite good from a basic mechanical standpoint (MDX, TSX and TL especially) but they need to truly exploit SH-AWD or get some RWD into the lineup. They also need to get some strong styling that doesn't resemble a dodo. I'd buy an MDX over anything in the class right now but the rest probably wouldn't be near as high on my list.

wraith5

I thought the article hit some spot on points about what's wrong with Honda. Yes, several statements were based on speculation/rumors but most were very valid points.

WolfpackS2k

I agree with the article almost 100%

Saint_Spinner

I like the current civic. I thought it was awesome for what it is: An econobox. But what a good econobox it was. Love the interior/exterior, the drive and etc. If they could continue that trend, then I'm all for it. Is it dated? Yes, but when it came out, it was pretty damn cool...for a civic...especially compared to the previous gen. civic...which was just plain boring.

asiliat

I gotta agree completely with the article. I'm not a Honda Fanboi (okay, I have an S2000, and I have a CBR929RR bike), but I've always enjoyed seeing them succeed. These last few iterations of their vehicles are horrendous. Simply unacceptable.

Onehots2k

Some guy at Edmunds' Blog nailed it

"Honda hasn't been producing benchmark products for some time but they are able to coast on their past reputation and a benevolent press corp that gives them the benefit of the doubt. Reviews of Honda products often read like brochures generated by the company's PR firm. There are always ambiguous references to Honda being run by engineers and being commited to efficiency and smart solutions and other nonsense that isnt supported by the products actually being sold. It also helps thata huge number of auto writers likely own or have owned Hondas in the past."

Plus, I read about how Honda does not use other designers from other companies. Look around, Hyundai's guy just jumped to Mercedes. A lot of these companies jump around. Honda seems to keep the styling department in house.

fishfryer

Any car company that doesn't sell a ragtop/open coupe is off base.

JonBoy

Benchmark? What is the benchmark for the midsize class, if not the Accord? You can scream "Hyundai Sonata" all you want but that's a brand-new vehicle going up against a two-year Accord design. When the 8th gen Accord was introduced, nothing else could beat it. There was the occasional Malibu that supposedly "won" a comparo or two but ultimately, once they got over the fact that the Malibu didn't suck like it used to, they realized the Accord was still the better car. Drive them both and I'll bet you'll agree. Only the Camry sells more than the Accord in its class (though not last month).

In the compact category, I'd argue the Mazda3 is the most fun to drive but it's also far less efficient than the Civic and Corolla. Ultimately, it's less of an overall car than the Civic. The Civic is still the benchmark for an all-around great car in the compact class. The new Focus looks to be quite good and the Cruze is going to be a big step up from the Cobalt but we'll see how the final product really is when they get here. The Civic and Corolla are the two best-sellers, if that means anything in terms of "benchmarks".

In the sub-compact, the Fit stands alone until the Fiesta shows up. The Fiesta will probably get a bit better fuel mileage and may possibly be sportier (recent test drive articles show that it is NOT better to drive and probably won't be until they bring a true sport model to the USA) but it's still not available yet and it has very little usable space inside compared to the Fit. The Yaris is a piece of crap.

The Odyssey is the clear minivan winner. The current one is still as good or better than the new Sienna and no one in their right mind would buy a Chrysler with any expectation of long-term reliability (not to mention worse real-life fuel mileage) and poor build quality. The new Odyssey is supposed to blow every other minivan in terms of both interior room and fuel economy. It outsells everything but Chrysler, primarily because you can get a Chrysler for pennies.

The CR-V is up against some stiff competition but does tend to win in terms of fit-and-finish, real-world fuel economy, and general handling and driving. There are far quicker vehicles (RAV4 V6 gets similar day-to-day mileage and is way faster, as are the GMs) and I'd argue some the GMs also drive a little more solidly but they do feel chintzier inside and real-world fuel mileage is not comparable. Still, the CR-V outsells them all, which means the public agrees.

So, that leaves us with the Pilot, which thus far this year is (I believe) #2 overall in sales in its size range. If it's crap, boy, there are a lot of uneducated buyers out there. Personally, I don't like how it looks but it does drive well and it's a solid, reliable vehicle.

Ridgeline and Element are really niche vehicles. They're good at what they do but arguably aren't in competition with anything specific. The Insight is definitely controversial in terms of cost vs benefit against a Prius and it's not quite as nice overall.

Still, I'll stand by my earlier comment that Honda's bread-and-butter cars are either the best or 2nd best out of everything out there right now. Sounds like a benchmark company to me.

I think a big part of this whole commentary is that companies that used to make crap are now making very competitive, well-engineered cars....like Honda. The fact that Honda isn't staying as far ahead makes people think Honda is slipping. Fact is, when you're at the front, it's tougher to make such big strides.

Think about it: most of Honda's big "jumps" on the competition were back when very little was expected or when they were just "coming into their own", much like Hyundai is now. They leapfrogged the best and took over the industry in terms of innovation and design.

If anything, I'd say it's interesting that despite them "lagging" or "losing focus", they're still making vehicles that are either the best or very nearly the best, some of them with older designs than those of the best of the competition.

As far as efficiency goes, Hyundai is ahead of Honda but everyone else is still behind. Real-world tests on the new Sonata show it to be no more fuel efficient than the Accord despite an extra cog, better aerodynamics, and a newer engine design. Go figure...