Thinking to upgrade to M3 E92 - am i crazy?
06-06-2014, 12:23 PM
#21
I'm going to leave prestige and status symbols out of the equation and leave the focus purely on the performance merits of the car.
I've been in my friend's E90 M3 (have not driven it). I'll start off with saying it's nice car, that said:
based on your intended use, there are a lot better options out there versus an E90 M3. I think, the S2000 is a much better car for this from a bang for buck and "fun factor" perspective - not necessarily as fast, but likely more fun. The S2000 is really hard to beat in this regard, which is why so many keep coming back to the car after trying other cars. From a cost of operation and consumables standpoint, the S2000 is also really hard to beat.
And, for those of you suggesting a boosted S2k for track use... LOL!!! it's going to take a lot more money than you're all factoring in.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/102...tup-for-track/
A lot of R&C vets have documented their experiences making a reliable boosted track S2K, and the reported cost is roughly equivalent to the cost of a 997.1-GT3. Boosted S2Ks also no where near as reliable or maintenance friendly as a regular N/A S2K (a big part of the appeal) or a minimally modded 997.1-GT3. If you'd like your boosted S2K to be more than a 1-lap wonder and run relatively reliably on track, expect spend like you would for much more expensive cars. You're essentially chasing super car performance, and if you want reliability to go with it - it's not cheap.
-2 R&C members have documented that cost was equal to or beyond a 997 GT3 (as stated)
-1 of those members ended up selling said turboed s2k with sequential transmission and buying a 997.2 GT3
-Another member has since gone back to N/A and put the turbo parts on the side now to re-pursue at a later time
-one is operating a super charged S - slightly cheaper than a turbo, but still far more expensive than expected. Additionally, he's logged less than 10 track days, so longevity/reliability is still up in the air
I've been in my friend's E90 M3 (have not driven it). I'll start off with saying it's nice car, that said:
based on your intended use, there are a lot better options out there versus an E90 M3. I think, the S2000 is a much better car for this from a bang for buck and "fun factor" perspective - not necessarily as fast, but likely more fun. The S2000 is really hard to beat in this regard, which is why so many keep coming back to the car after trying other cars. From a cost of operation and consumables standpoint, the S2000 is also really hard to beat.
And, for those of you suggesting a boosted S2k for track use... LOL!!! it's going to take a lot more money than you're all factoring in.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/102...tup-for-track/
A lot of R&C vets have documented their experiences making a reliable boosted track S2K, and the reported cost is roughly equivalent to the cost of a 997.1-GT3. Boosted S2Ks also no where near as reliable or maintenance friendly as a regular N/A S2K (a big part of the appeal) or a minimally modded 997.1-GT3. If you'd like your boosted S2K to be more than a 1-lap wonder and run relatively reliably on track, expect spend like you would for much more expensive cars. You're essentially chasing super car performance, and if you want reliability to go with it - it's not cheap.
-2 R&C members have documented that cost was equal to or beyond a 997 GT3 (as stated)
-1 of those members ended up selling said turboed s2k with sequential transmission and buying a 997.2 GT3
-Another member has since gone back to N/A and put the turbo parts on the side now to re-pursue at a later time
-one is operating a super charged S - slightly cheaper than a turbo, but still far more expensive than expected. Additionally, he's logged less than 10 track days, so longevity/reliability is still up in the air
06-06-2014, 02:49 PM
#22
I'm going to leave prestige and status symbols out of the equation and leave the focus purely on the performance merits of the car.
I've been in my friend's E90 M3 (have not driven it). I'll start off with saying it's nice car, that said:
based on your intended use, there are a lot better options out there versus an E90 M3. I think, the S2000 is a much better car for this from a bang for buck and "fun factor" perspective - not necessarily as fast, but likely more fun. The S2000 is really hard to beat in this regard, which is why so many keep coming back to the car after trying other cars. From a cost of operation and consumables standpoint, the S2000 is also really hard to beat.
And, for those of you suggesting a boosted S2k for track use... LOL!!! it's going to take a lot more money than you're all factoring in.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/102...tup-for-track/
A lot of R&C vets have documented their experiences making a reliable boosted track S2K, and the reported cost is roughly equivalent to the cost of a 997.1-GT3. Boosted S2Ks also no where near as reliable or maintenance friendly as a regular N/A S2K (a big part of the appeal) or a minimally modded 997.1-GT3. If you'd like your boosted S2K to be more than a 1-lap wonder and run relatively reliably on track, expect spend like you would for much more expensive cars. You're essentially chasing super car performance, and if you want reliability to go with it - it's not cheap.
-2 R&C members have documented that cost was equal to or beyond a 997 GT3 (as stated)
-1 of those members ended up selling said turboed s2k with sequential transmission and buying a 997.2 GT3
-Another member has since gone back to N/A and put the turbo parts on the side now to re-pursue at a later time
-one is operating a super charged S - slightly cheaper than a turbo, but still far more expensive than expected. Additionally, he's logged less than 10 track days, so longevity/reliability is still up in the air
I've been in my friend's E90 M3 (have not driven it). I'll start off with saying it's nice car, that said:
based on your intended use, there are a lot better options out there versus an E90 M3. I think, the S2000 is a much better car for this from a bang for buck and "fun factor" perspective - not necessarily as fast, but likely more fun. The S2000 is really hard to beat in this regard, which is why so many keep coming back to the car after trying other cars. From a cost of operation and consumables standpoint, the S2000 is also really hard to beat.
And, for those of you suggesting a boosted S2k for track use... LOL!!! it's going to take a lot more money than you're all factoring in.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/102...tup-for-track/
A lot of R&C vets have documented their experiences making a reliable boosted track S2K, and the reported cost is roughly equivalent to the cost of a 997.1-GT3. Boosted S2Ks also no where near as reliable or maintenance friendly as a regular N/A S2K (a big part of the appeal) or a minimally modded 997.1-GT3. If you'd like your boosted S2K to be more than a 1-lap wonder and run relatively reliably on track, expect spend like you would for much more expensive cars. You're essentially chasing super car performance, and if you want reliability to go with it - it's not cheap.
-2 R&C members have documented that cost was equal to or beyond a 997 GT3 (as stated)
-1 of those members ended up selling said turboed s2k with sequential transmission and buying a 997.2 GT3
-Another member has since gone back to N/A and put the turbo parts on the side now to re-pursue at a later time
-one is operating a super charged S - slightly cheaper than a turbo, but still far more expensive than expected. Additionally, he's logged less than 10 track days, so longevity/reliability is still up in the air
& This is coming from someone who had a supercharged S2k with multiple autocross/track days. I did nothing but oil changes...
Yes to be competitive with GT3s & z06s you will have to spend a lot but if you build your car with a mild sc'er setup right, you will be fine, & your consumables are still immensely cheaper than a GT3/z06 consumables.
One guy from that thread posted this "just to name a few things
SOS KIT 410whp 14.5 lbs boost
BIG oil cooler
BIG rad with CRAZY fans
vented hood
stage 2 diff.
and I bring extra axles (never needed them yet) aside from the normal n.a stuff like rotors pads ect"
Thats not that expensive... besides the car your looking at about $30k of work. $30k + $15k car is MUCH cheaper than a $100k+ gt3
06-06-2014, 03:08 PM
#23
You're looking at more like $40K-$50k in work. Wheel bearings and hubs turn into a consumable that needs annual replacements. If you throw in the sequential trans that the other guy had, that was $20k alone for the trans and to fabricate getting it to work in the car (that's on top of his $40k-$50K). Part of that $40-$50k is doing the R&D and breaking stuff along the way too, which is much more expensive.
And, we're talking about USED GT3s. 997.1, which are going for around $70K-$90k at this point.
Also, go through the thread more to see the hiccups along the way.
And, we're talking about USED GT3s. 997.1, which are going for around $70K-$90k at this point.
Also, go through the thread more to see the hiccups along the way.
06-06-2014, 03:12 PM
#24
You're looking at more like $40K-$50k in work. Wheel bearings and hubs turn into a consumable that needs annual replacements. If you throw in the sequential trans that the other guy had, that was $20k alone for the trans and to fabricate getting it to work in the car (that's on top of his $40k-$50K). Part of that $40-$50k is doing the R&D and breaking stuff along the way too, which is much more expensive.
And, we're talking about USED GT3s. 997.1, which are going for around $70K-$90k at this point.
And, we're talking about USED GT3s. 997.1, which are going for around $70K-$90k at this point.
Also those GT3s are getting harder and harder to find. They also have huge consumables cost. If anything breaks on those good luck. I know a few people that have GT3s as track cars. Their yearly bills in consumables and repairs are HUGE. Also god forbid you hit something in the GT3. Repairs are much higher than an s2k
06-06-2014, 10:05 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Bullwings' timestamp='1402096096' post='23193425
You're looking at more like $40K-$50k in work. Wheel bearings and hubs turn into a consumable that needs annual replacements. If you throw in the sequential trans that the other guy had, that was $20k alone for the trans and to fabricate getting it to work in the car (that's on top of his $40k-$50K). Part of that $40-$50k is doing the R&D and breaking stuff along the way too, which is much more expensive.
And, we're talking about USED GT3s. 997.1, which are going for around $70K-$90k at this point.
And, we're talking about USED GT3s. 997.1, which are going for around $70K-$90k at this point.
Also those GT3s are getting harder and harder to find. They also have huge consumables cost. If anything breaks on those good luck. I know a few people that have GT3s as track cars. Their yearly bills in consumables and repairs are HUGE. Also god forbid you hit something in the GT3. Repairs are much higher than an s2k
That said, this is not from my own experience, i'm just going off of one of the senior member's experiences. He sold his turbo s2k, and bought Andy Holis' old 997 GT3. He then built and caged a CR-s2k to club race in E-production.
The point i'm trying to get across here, is that a boosted S2k isn't nearly as simple as everyone makes it sound. The costs and consumables of an FI-S2K increase quite substantially, even more so if you start running low level r-comps like NT-01s, R888s, etc. etc. - if you're not breaking stuff, then you're probably slow. My own experience in a stock S2K with 225/255 street tires was replace front pads/rotors every 3-4 track days (cracked rotors, pads down to backing plate - dtc60s or equivalent), which was essentially a $1200 annual budget for brakes alone based on my tracking frequency. This is for a novice weekend warrior in an N/A s2k, nothing fancy going on here. It was enough to convince me to spend on a BBK before coilovers.
The costs for an FI-S2K are extremely under-estimated for track use. What works on the street and canyon carving is far different from the track.
Back to the OP - sorry for the thread derailment here.
I think a generation-1 Cayman S would better fit the bill, if you're really looking the change things up. Do an aftermarket IMS bearing replacement for preventive maintenance, buy some decent coilovers, brake pads, track rubber, and have some fun - all of that is cheaper than the up front cost of an E92 M3 with lower consumables costs. It's likely to be a more rewarding drive too.
For me, the main attraction to the E9x M3 is the S65 motor revving to 8400 rpms - not very many V8s doing that... From a sports car stand point though, the rest of the car is a compromise of street/dd utility with comfort versus performance and handling. For your intended purposes, look for something a little bit more purpose built and less "jack of all trades."
06-07-2014, 01:03 AM
#26
Wow. Sorry to continue the thread-jacking, but this has turned into a very interesting discussion. When you guys say "track," you're talking about "long" courses, right? That is, something more serious than autoX? I am considering going FI but don't want to have to stop autoXing -- and my budget is nowhere near the figures mentioned in this thread. Thoughts?
Meanwhile, OP, I'd say go for the M3 if it's in your budget! Have never driven an E9xM3, but I can well imagine my E90 335i would be a absolute blast with 100+ extra HP. Love that BMW quality
Meanwhile, OP, I'd say go for the M3 if it's in your budget! Have never driven an E9xM3, but I can well imagine my E90 335i would be a absolute blast with 100+ extra HP. Love that BMW quality
06-07-2014, 04:32 AM
#27
Registered User
Thread Starter
wow - what a discussion.
first of all - thanks for all the input. really appreciate it. all the ideas help to get me thinking and [hopefully] make my mind.
just to remind about the car usage:
so discussion about big track usage are not relevant. i wish we had such a track here. all we have is this:
http://youtu.be/Dxb-hE1szNY
example of a typical snake run:
http://youtu.be/8mnfW7_xSZ4
the main attraction of the M3 is indeed its crazy engine.
99% of local Boxsters are PDK. so if i take that route it'll be 2010 Boxster S with PDK.
my S is already tuned and feels quite sharp:
EDM 2007 with F20C2 engine, AEM v2 CAI, Rick's header, Berk 70mm HFC, Invidia Q300 v4, BC stage 2 cams, Flashpro tune
KW V3+, Eibach swaybars Front+Rear, Accord caliper, RB 2 piece front rotors, Challenge SS brake lines, Motul RBF600, LHT MC brace, GP rear diffuser
Enkei PF01 9"+60, square RS3 245.
some people say Boxster S won't be enough of an upgrade from my S
first of all - thanks for all the input. really appreciate it. all the ideas help to get me thinking and [hopefully] make my mind.
just to remind about the car usage:
my car is a weekend only toy, no need for 4 seats and mostly used for:
- fast canyon/mountain sessions
- tracking on a fairly small circuit (mostly 2nd gear)
- occasional auto-x/gymkhana
- fast canyon/mountain sessions
- tracking on a fairly small circuit (mostly 2nd gear)
- occasional auto-x/gymkhana
http://youtu.be/Dxb-hE1szNY
example of a typical snake run:
http://youtu.be/8mnfW7_xSZ4
the main attraction of the M3 is indeed its crazy engine.
99% of local Boxsters are PDK. so if i take that route it'll be 2010 Boxster S with PDK.
my S is already tuned and feels quite sharp:
EDM 2007 with F20C2 engine, AEM v2 CAI, Rick's header, Berk 70mm HFC, Invidia Q300 v4, BC stage 2 cams, Flashpro tune
KW V3+, Eibach swaybars Front+Rear, Accord caliper, RB 2 piece front rotors, Challenge SS brake lines, Motul RBF600, LHT MC brace, GP rear diffuser
Enkei PF01 9"+60, square RS3 245.
some people say Boxster S won't be enough of an upgrade from my S
06-07-2014, 05:54 AM
#28
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Here's a thought; older cayman with a gt3 motor swap is in that $45k range.
The s2000 and cayman chassis are very similar; driving feel is different since the cayman is a bit more refined/muted. I've owned e30, e36 and e46 m3's and will be getting my first s2000 soon. The e30 m3 feels very similar; raw like the s2000 but that car is very expensive to buy and maintain these days. Plus the s2000 chassis is much better.
The s2000 and cayman chassis are very similar; driving feel is different since the cayman is a bit more refined/muted. I've owned e30, e36 and e46 m3's and will be getting my first s2000 soon. The e30 m3 feels very similar; raw like the s2000 but that car is very expensive to buy and maintain these days. Plus the s2000 chassis is much better.
06-07-2014, 06:05 AM
#29
Registered User
Thread Starter
to do it for me locally is not feasible at all.
plus i'm a junky of topless driving - so for me Boxster wins hands down over Cayman.
With M3 obviously i would have to compromise for a coupe/sedan.
BTW there is an 2008 Z4M coupe for sale locally.
but asking price is too close to 2010 Boxster S / 2009 M3.
plus i'm a junky of topless driving - so for me Boxster wins hands down over Cayman.
With M3 obviously i would have to compromise for a coupe/sedan.
BTW there is an 2008 Z4M coupe for sale locally.
but asking price is too close to 2010 Boxster S / 2009 M3.
06-07-2014, 06:27 AM
#30
In my old car (I had a STX prepped RSX Type-S), I was consistently even or faster than the 2 e9x M3s that autocrossed in my region. Most of that might have been driver mod, but watching them drive it was definitely a struggle to watch them shift the weight around, and it didn't seem like the extra power was going anywhere.
I'd go Boxster S or Cayman S any day of the week over an E92, but that's just like my opinion man.