Semi-Official "I'm" Thread - LV
Thread Starter
Moderator
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 109,435
Likes: 1,651
From: SJC
I'm noting that while United will get a lot of bad press from this, the passenger was 100% in the wrong and broke multiple laws, as well as inconveniencing hundreds of other people because he was too important to get off the plane. I have zero sympathy for him and hope he sits in jail.
Member
Spotter
Spotter
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,213
Likes: 277
From: Somerville, MA
I'm noting that while United will get a lot of bad press from this, the passenger was 100% in the wrong and broke multiple laws, as well as inconveniencing hundreds of other people because he was too important to get off the plane. I have zero sympathy for him and hope he sits in jail.
The way the passenger was removed was without class and totally distasteful and there's a clear backlash on the way it was handled. Protocol is one thing, but you need to be smart about how the public is going to perceive you forcibly removing a man who has done nothing wrong other than take a seat that the airline wants to use for a crew member.
If the man doesn't want to leave, ask someone else, offer more money, hell United and all airlines have deals with other air carriers to get crew members to destinations and there were multiple alternate flights that they could have gotten the crew on.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 93,305
Likes: 820
From: Nowhere
I'm in disagreement. Regardless of who's in the right or wrong, the only person inconveniencing passengers was United. They overbooked the flight, and then forced a paying customer to leave his seat on the plane.
The way the passenger was removed was without class and totally distasteful and there's a clear backlash on the way it was handled. Protocol is one thing, but you need to be smart about how the public is going to perceive you forcibly removing a man who has done nothing wrong other than take a seat that the airline wants to use for a crew member.
If the man doesn't want to leave, ask someone else, offer more money, hell United and all airlines have deals with other air carriers to get crew members to destinations and there were multiple alternate flights that they could have gotten the crew on.
The way the passenger was removed was without class and totally distasteful and there's a clear backlash on the way it was handled. Protocol is one thing, but you need to be smart about how the public is going to perceive you forcibly removing a man who has done nothing wrong other than take a seat that the airline wants to use for a crew member.
If the man doesn't want to leave, ask someone else, offer more money, hell United and all airlines have deals with other air carriers to get crew members to destinations and there were multiple alternate flights that they could have gotten the crew on.
First, the passenger was wrong. The airline can deny him transport for any reason it wants, which while inherently unfair, exists for a reason. It doesn't matter that he had a ticket or that he was on the plane. There are no squatter's rights. Once he refused a request from the flight crew, sorry, but he's lost his case. That law exists for a long list of reasons. He was wrong and is committing a crime at that point.
Second, the VDB/IDB process only works if everyone plays fair. Once people start pulling out DYKWIA and demanding more money, then everyone does it, and any time a plane needs to bump people off, everyone will DYKWIA. The law forbids airlines from giving preference to any class of people, again, for a litany of reasons.
Third, the options for getting the crew to SDF weren't going to work because of rest hour requirements (which again, exist for a reason). There appears to be some poor planning on United's part here.
One thing I'm a little confused about is that the early stories Monday indicated there had been flight cancellations due to the storms that went thru the south Sunday, and there were 60+ people on standby for that flight (which holds 66 people). But apparently it wasn't overbooked/oversold. Those two stories don't entirely jive, so I'm not sure if the early stories were wrong or if that info just got wiped out because it didn't fit the narrative of evil corporation vs poor guy trying to get home. But given that the IDB was 4 or 5 flights later, it seems likely there was a string of people waiting for those flights.
I feel bad for the people who got IDBd and got off the plane. While they got compensated, it sucks to lose the IDB lotto. I've been in IDB situations before and it's entirely uncomfortable. I don't feel sorry for the passenger who threw a tantrum. I guess most of the world thinks he's a hero for standing up to the evil corporation and the police, and that the gate agent (whose primary job is to get the door closed on time) should have just put on his/her auctioneer hat and raised the price until 4 people got off. It sounds nice in principle but it just means more and more delays.
All that's going to come of this is the airlines and the FAA will fix their terminology (Voluntary Denied Boarding will end up as Voluntary Denied Carriage or something like that, which is what it actually is), United will tell its employees to be nicer, and the cop will probably get a month of paid leave for excessive force. All the calls for banning overbooking, banning IDB, or whatever are just pissing in the wind. Overbooking is massively beneficial to all parties involved and if it goes away, air travel becomes shittier and more expensive.
All that said, United is a shitty airline and a lot of their employees are shitty at their jobs, which is why I avoid them like the plague. And it sounds like the gate agent did a shitty job at communicating what was happening (which is typical of United). They should just go ahead and hire Sean Spicer after he gets canned by Trump; their PR couldn't possibly be any worse than they were Sunday/Monday.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 93,305
Likes: 820
From: Nowhere
I'm also adding that nobody I've talked to who is on the passenger's side can articulate how they want this literally 1 in a million situation fixed. Just that United is evil (some truth, but not the reason this happened).
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 64,605
Likes: 1,226
I'm noting I've argued this at length, and apparently I'm the only person who knows what COCs and the applicable laws are, but there are several things.
First, the passenger was wrong. The airline can deny him transport for any reason it wants, which while inherently unfair, exists for a reason. It doesn't matter that he had a ticket or that he was on the plane. There are no squatter's rights. Once he refused a request from the flight crew, sorry, but he's lost his case. That law exists for a long list of reasons. He was wrong and is committing a crime at that point.
Second, the VDB/IDB process only works if everyone plays fair. Once people start pulling out DYKWIA and demanding more money, then everyone does it, and any time a plane needs to bump people off, everyone will DYKWIA. The law forbids airlines from giving preference to any class of people, again, for a litany of reasons.
Third, the options for getting the crew to SDF weren't going to work because of rest hour requirements (which again, exist for a reason). There appears to be some poor planning on United's part here.
One thing I'm a little confused about is that the early stories Monday indicated there had been flight cancellations due to the storms that went thru the south Sunday, and there were 60+ people on standby for that flight (which holds 66 people). But apparently it wasn't overbooked/oversold. Those two stories don't entirely jive, so I'm not sure if the early stories were wrong or if that info just got wiped out because it didn't fit the narrative of evil corporation vs poor guy trying to get home. But given that the IDB was 4 or 5 flights later, it seems likely there was a string of people waiting for those flights.
I feel bad for the people who got IDBd and got off the plane. While they got compensated, it sucks to lose the IDB lotto. I've been in IDB situations before and it's entirely uncomfortable. I don't feel sorry for the passenger who threw a tantrum. I guess most of the world thinks he's a hero for standing up to the evil corporation and the police, and that the gate agent (whose primary job is to get the door closed on time) should have just put on his/her auctioneer hat and raised the price until 4 people got off. It sounds nice in principle but it just means more and more delays.
All that's going to come of this is the airlines and the FAA will fix their terminology (Voluntary Denied Boarding will end up as Voluntary Denied Carriage or something like that, which is what it actually is), United will tell its employees to be nicer, and the cop will probably get a month of paid leave for excessive force. All the calls for banning overbooking, banning IDB, or whatever are just pissing in the wind. Overbooking is massively beneficial to all parties involved and if it goes away, air travel becomes shittier and more expensive.
All that said, United is a shitty airline and a lot of their employees are shitty at their jobs, which is why I avoid them like the plague. And it sounds like the gate agent did a shitty job at communicating what was happening (which is typical of United). They should just go ahead and hire Sean Spicer after he gets canned by Trump; their PR couldn't possibly be any worse than they were Sunday/Monday.
First, the passenger was wrong. The airline can deny him transport for any reason it wants, which while inherently unfair, exists for a reason. It doesn't matter that he had a ticket or that he was on the plane. There are no squatter's rights. Once he refused a request from the flight crew, sorry, but he's lost his case. That law exists for a long list of reasons. He was wrong and is committing a crime at that point.
Second, the VDB/IDB process only works if everyone plays fair. Once people start pulling out DYKWIA and demanding more money, then everyone does it, and any time a plane needs to bump people off, everyone will DYKWIA. The law forbids airlines from giving preference to any class of people, again, for a litany of reasons.
Third, the options for getting the crew to SDF weren't going to work because of rest hour requirements (which again, exist for a reason). There appears to be some poor planning on United's part here.
One thing I'm a little confused about is that the early stories Monday indicated there had been flight cancellations due to the storms that went thru the south Sunday, and there were 60+ people on standby for that flight (which holds 66 people). But apparently it wasn't overbooked/oversold. Those two stories don't entirely jive, so I'm not sure if the early stories were wrong or if that info just got wiped out because it didn't fit the narrative of evil corporation vs poor guy trying to get home. But given that the IDB was 4 or 5 flights later, it seems likely there was a string of people waiting for those flights.
I feel bad for the people who got IDBd and got off the plane. While they got compensated, it sucks to lose the IDB lotto. I've been in IDB situations before and it's entirely uncomfortable. I don't feel sorry for the passenger who threw a tantrum. I guess most of the world thinks he's a hero for standing up to the evil corporation and the police, and that the gate agent (whose primary job is to get the door closed on time) should have just put on his/her auctioneer hat and raised the price until 4 people got off. It sounds nice in principle but it just means more and more delays.
All that's going to come of this is the airlines and the FAA will fix their terminology (Voluntary Denied Boarding will end up as Voluntary Denied Carriage or something like that, which is what it actually is), United will tell its employees to be nicer, and the cop will probably get a month of paid leave for excessive force. All the calls for banning overbooking, banning IDB, or whatever are just pissing in the wind. Overbooking is massively beneficial to all parties involved and if it goes away, air travel becomes shittier and more expensive.
All that said, United is a shitty airline and a lot of their employees are shitty at their jobs, which is why I avoid them like the plague. And it sounds like the gate agent did a shitty job at communicating what was happening (which is typical of United). They should just go ahead and hire Sean Spicer after he gets canned by Trump; their PR couldn't possibly be any worse than they were Sunday/Monday.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 42,116
Likes: 31
From: Over the Electric Grapevine.....man
