The Bible Code
Joined: May 2002
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I'm afraid I must disagree with many on here.
First of all, some have said that this would probably happen it other large texts as well. This is simply untrue. I can see it PERHAPS happening once, but happening multiple times, with the intertwining words linked by event? Not happening.
Personally, as a Christian, I find this interesting and perhaps an indication that scripture was divinely inspired. That said, I don't NEED it to prove anything to me and I don't particularly conclude anything from this.
They say that given infinite time and infinite monkeys typing letters on keyboards, the monkeys would write the works of Shakespeare. I say that, given an infinite book, you might, after an infinite time, find the same type of links found in the Bible using the Bible code. Otherwise, in finite time, no I don't.
If I understood what I've read (my mother has the book), they have looked at other texts (including religous texts) and found nothing similar.
The statistical significance of this is not in finding ONE word, it is in finding TWO (or more) words that were indicative of an event. As those that read the book will find (and if I remember correctly), they estimate statistical probability of this happening multiple times as being astronomical. The possibility of it happening by happenstance or chance is roughly nil (ie, 0.00000000000...1).
Tim, I'm especially surprised at you to. Why dismiss it so easily? Why is it Bible idolotry to believe it could be/is true? As I said, I'm not inferring anything from this "Bible code" but given that I believe that it is true, wherein am I doing wrong?
Numerology - The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed influence on human life.
By this definition, I don't think that this would constitute numerology at all. While the basis for these things is mathematical (numerical, specifically, in this case), this is far different that the study of SPECIFIC numbers (which I believe what numerology represents) and their influence. People studying the Bible Code are not saying "Six is the number of death - sixes are bad and you should not have them present on your license plate, clothing, etc, etc", they are merely saying that mathematically analyzing and rearranging the WORD (not number) structure of the Bible results in some very interesting word patterns and intersections. Reading the book and knowing their methodology would perhaps show you this.
That said, the use of specific numbers is present throughout the Bible. God seems to favor different numbers and they do appear to have meaning. You will find many 3s, 7s, and 12s especially in the Bible - 3 manifestations of God (father, son, and holy spirit), 3 "patriarchs" of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), 12 disciples, 12 tribes of Israel, 7 church ages, 7 trumpets, 7 feasts, 7 days, etc, etc - I'm sure you've read this...
Perhaps you should read the book and research, then see where you stand. I remember you as being openminded - perhaps you should remain so and read the book, then make a decision.
First of all, some have said that this would probably happen it other large texts as well. This is simply untrue. I can see it PERHAPS happening once, but happening multiple times, with the intertwining words linked by event? Not happening.
Personally, as a Christian, I find this interesting and perhaps an indication that scripture was divinely inspired. That said, I don't NEED it to prove anything to me and I don't particularly conclude anything from this.
They say that given infinite time and infinite monkeys typing letters on keyboards, the monkeys would write the works of Shakespeare. I say that, given an infinite book, you might, after an infinite time, find the same type of links found in the Bible using the Bible code. Otherwise, in finite time, no I don't.
If I understood what I've read (my mother has the book), they have looked at other texts (including religous texts) and found nothing similar.
The statistical significance of this is not in finding ONE word, it is in finding TWO (or more) words that were indicative of an event. As those that read the book will find (and if I remember correctly), they estimate statistical probability of this happening multiple times as being astronomical. The possibility of it happening by happenstance or chance is roughly nil (ie, 0.00000000000...1).
Tim, I'm especially surprised at you to. Why dismiss it so easily? Why is it Bible idolotry to believe it could be/is true? As I said, I'm not inferring anything from this "Bible code" but given that I believe that it is true, wherein am I doing wrong?
Numerology - The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed influence on human life.
By this definition, I don't think that this would constitute numerology at all. While the basis for these things is mathematical (numerical, specifically, in this case), this is far different that the study of SPECIFIC numbers (which I believe what numerology represents) and their influence. People studying the Bible Code are not saying "Six is the number of death - sixes are bad and you should not have them present on your license plate, clothing, etc, etc", they are merely saying that mathematically analyzing and rearranging the WORD (not number) structure of the Bible results in some very interesting word patterns and intersections. Reading the book and knowing their methodology would perhaps show you this.
That said, the use of specific numbers is present throughout the Bible. God seems to favor different numbers and they do appear to have meaning. You will find many 3s, 7s, and 12s especially in the Bible - 3 manifestations of God (father, son, and holy spirit), 3 "patriarchs" of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), 12 disciples, 12 tribes of Israel, 7 church ages, 7 trumpets, 7 feasts, 7 days, etc, etc - I'm sure you've read this...
Perhaps you should read the book and research, then see where you stand. I remember you as being openminded - perhaps you should remain so and read the book, then make a decision.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: The Bat Cave
Asimo, I was going to mention the movie Pi as well.
Great film, even though I think they spent like 10 bucks on it
Similar in the fact that this 156? digit number, was the formula for all math, including the stock market, and also the true name of God.
Not being religious at all, I still found it very interesting. Though my comprehension of some religious themes were nil
Great film, even though I think they spent like 10 bucks on it
Similar in the fact that this 156? digit number, was the formula for all math, including the stock market, and also the true name of God.
Not being religious at all, I still found it very interesting. Though my comprehension of some religious themes were nil
Thread Starter
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From: 49th Parallel
I am perplexed sometimes that others would just disregard such evidence, which can be a key element in answering the eternal question. I am Catholic, but barring religion, let's just look at the facts. Some say that they need proof or evidence of the existence of GOd or Jesus, etc etc.. to believe, they look at it from a science point of view, and some (myself inluded) just naturally believe that there has to be more to life than what meets the eye.. i.e. A higher power, so isn't this possibly, and I stress the word POSSIBLY the best of both worlds? Doesn't this intertwine both Science and statistics with religion?? It comes from a sacred text, and again POSSIBLY accounts for many of the main events that have occured through the past centuries, not using hear say like before, not using belief, but using POSSIBLE factual evidence using math, and patterns...
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Vancouver, WA USA
No, I cant believe that.. Why.. there is 1000 differnet religions out there with 1000 very conlicting different scripts each one thinking they are absolulty correct and the others are absolutly wrong (note, place your belief here and ask yourself if the others are wrong). In fact, its so bad that the same given religion changes from counry to country and even person to person.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 432
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From: Louisville
JonBoy,
I've picked up the book several times, read a chapter or two, and felt that I had a "feel" for its content. After that, doing a bit of research presented enough contrary evidence to make me highly suspicious of the authors' work. As I mentioned earlier, read the link that Fear Itself posted. There is, suffice it to say, lots of evidence that their analysis of War & Peace was flawed at best. (The key point is that THE AUTHORS looked at other books. When others have used the same technique to examine various texts, they had no difficulty in reproducing the results.)
As for being open-minded, yes, I tend to be. However, to suggest that the Bible contains a secret code (numeric, or otherwise derived) that will reveal the future, is (in my opinion) inconsistent with the rest of the text.
BTW, I don't believe the book of Revelations to John to be predictions of the future. It's written in the same code as the book of Daniel, and many other Hebrew texts, which in this case was used by John to be able to continue to preach to those in Asia Minor, in spite of the fact that he was being held prisoner on Patmos for preaching a gospel that suggested someone other than Caesar was king. Read "Revelation as Drama," when you get a chance. The author makes a good case for the entire book to have been written to be performed as a play in a large theater in Ephesus.
WRT "Bible idolatry," there are many people who worship the Bible. I don't. The thoughts and meanings are sacred to me, but the book binding, the paper, even the specific words used by the translators (or even the original authors) are not. I am clearly not an inerrantist. I believe it's quite possible that textural errors exist, not only in the current popular translations, but in the ancient manuscripts as well. For me, that's not inconsistent with believing that the underlying message is true. It does, however, force me to examine quite closely what I believe the words to be saying. The downside to this form of faith is that I can't just sit around and let someone tell me what to belive. I have to do the leg-work myself.
In the case of the "Bible Code," it puts dependencies on a specific version of the ancient Hebrew manuscripts, one that doesn't always agree with other copies. To suggest further that God intentionally put secret messages in letters arranged by numeric codes and relationships, but did so in such a way that the messages could be lost by a single misstep of copying or translation, seems far-fetched to me.
After all, only Daniel & Revelations contain a specific warning to not change the text, even slightly. The reason is that there is meaning in the colors, numbers, animals, and other symbols.
In short, as a Christian, I find the "Bible Code" to be offensive because of what it claims for the text, and for the fact that doing so takes away from the One whom the text should direct you towards.
Again, I don't worship the book (that is, the Bible), and I question anything that suggests that I should do so. "The Bible Code," for me, does just that.
Tim
I've picked up the book several times, read a chapter or two, and felt that I had a "feel" for its content. After that, doing a bit of research presented enough contrary evidence to make me highly suspicious of the authors' work. As I mentioned earlier, read the link that Fear Itself posted. There is, suffice it to say, lots of evidence that their analysis of War & Peace was flawed at best. (The key point is that THE AUTHORS looked at other books. When others have used the same technique to examine various texts, they had no difficulty in reproducing the results.)
As for being open-minded, yes, I tend to be. However, to suggest that the Bible contains a secret code (numeric, or otherwise derived) that will reveal the future, is (in my opinion) inconsistent with the rest of the text.
BTW, I don't believe the book of Revelations to John to be predictions of the future. It's written in the same code as the book of Daniel, and many other Hebrew texts, which in this case was used by John to be able to continue to preach to those in Asia Minor, in spite of the fact that he was being held prisoner on Patmos for preaching a gospel that suggested someone other than Caesar was king. Read "Revelation as Drama," when you get a chance. The author makes a good case for the entire book to have been written to be performed as a play in a large theater in Ephesus.
WRT "Bible idolatry," there are many people who worship the Bible. I don't. The thoughts and meanings are sacred to me, but the book binding, the paper, even the specific words used by the translators (or even the original authors) are not. I am clearly not an inerrantist. I believe it's quite possible that textural errors exist, not only in the current popular translations, but in the ancient manuscripts as well. For me, that's not inconsistent with believing that the underlying message is true. It does, however, force me to examine quite closely what I believe the words to be saying. The downside to this form of faith is that I can't just sit around and let someone tell me what to belive. I have to do the leg-work myself.
In the case of the "Bible Code," it puts dependencies on a specific version of the ancient Hebrew manuscripts, one that doesn't always agree with other copies. To suggest further that God intentionally put secret messages in letters arranged by numeric codes and relationships, but did so in such a way that the messages could be lost by a single misstep of copying or translation, seems far-fetched to me.
After all, only Daniel & Revelations contain a specific warning to not change the text, even slightly. The reason is that there is meaning in the colors, numbers, animals, and other symbols.
In short, as a Christian, I find the "Bible Code" to be offensive because of what it claims for the text, and for the fact that doing so takes away from the One whom the text should direct you towards.
Again, I don't worship the book (that is, the Bible), and I question anything that suggests that I should do so. "The Bible Code," for me, does just that.
Tim
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Yes, it is what the kabbalists were talking about in the movie Pi, and yes all those words really do add up!!!
The Hebrew language is an incredibly complex piece of work, and there are so many meanings and interpretations hidden in the relationships between words written in the Torah it is impossible for me to ignore. However, in any translation all of the mathematical meaning is lost.
Also, the style of writing a Torah scroll has meaning, giving emphasis to certain letters over others. Each letter has been written in the same style with the same spacing and weight of the ink for thousands of years. Without knowing the mathematical and styling cues (not to mention the oral tradition) you cannot come close to any understanding of the real meaning. Even if you do have some knowledge that's no guarantee you will understand anything.
Tim, in response to your statement about one error trashing the whole code...think about the number Pi or a computer program. One number wrong in Pi and you no longer have the circular relationship, one byte of a binary swapped from a zero to a one and it can crash the entire system. They always say "it's the little things in life that count" right?
The Hebrew language is an incredibly complex piece of work, and there are so many meanings and interpretations hidden in the relationships between words written in the Torah it is impossible for me to ignore. However, in any translation all of the mathematical meaning is lost.
Also, the style of writing a Torah scroll has meaning, giving emphasis to certain letters over others. Each letter has been written in the same style with the same spacing and weight of the ink for thousands of years. Without knowing the mathematical and styling cues (not to mention the oral tradition) you cannot come close to any understanding of the real meaning. Even if you do have some knowledge that's no guarantee you will understand anything.
Tim, in response to your statement about one error trashing the whole code...think about the number Pi or a computer program. One number wrong in Pi and you no longer have the circular relationship, one byte of a binary swapped from a zero to a one and it can crash the entire system. They always say "it's the little things in life that count" right?