the term for study of this is called Gematria, btw.

 

Unabageler,

No argument about little things in math being important. In fact, this is the reason for the warnings in Daniel and Revelation. (My apologies for pluralizing Revelation in my earlier message. That was a dork move on my part.) If you change any of the numbers, colors, animals, and so on, you've potentially destroyed the message.

Now, there are a thousand little subtleties I can introduce by choosing slightly different words and phrases. In theory, if I have the original author to guide me, I have some hope of surmizing the original meaning. Without such guidance, I'd need to have the EXACT original wording, formatting and all. If Christians are truly reading the Bible under guidance of the Holy Spirit, then they (we) have the Author available for consultation. <g>

However, given that there are differences in the most ancient copies that we have (Codex Sinaiticus & Codex Alexandrinus, which I think are currently in a British museum, and Codex Vaticanus, that I believe is stored at the Vatican), we can't be certain of the original meaning without such consultation, or even be guaranteed that we know the original words.

Unfortunately, the Bible Code text analysis (relying on letter and word position, as well as choice) presumes that we're able to properly format all the original text prior to analysis, and hoping that we've got the "right version"(indications are that Codex Vaticanus is the oldest, and presumably, most reliable). Even if we get our hopes up, and assume that Codex Vaticanus was one of the copies that Eusebius was supposed to have created in 331 or so (long odds), the formatting was quite possibly changed from the original manuscripts, penned many centuries earlier.

This is asking far more than simple exegesis.

In the end, even this ignores the issue I mentioned at the outset, of the same kinds of patterns appearing in other texts, analyzed the same way. If other texts present the same kinds of patterns and "hidden messages," then it sort of takes the shine off the apple, don't you think?

Tim

P.S. To the best of my knowledge, the Bible itself doesn't claim inerrancy. That attribute is something that people have ascribed to it, which seems to happen particularly when someone wants to engage in proof-texting (using the Bible to justify slavery, bigotry, and so on).

P.P.S. For fun, do a quick search on "Bible Code" in Google, and read some of the interesting "predictions" you can find in Moby Dick, War and Peace, and other large volumes of literature.

P.P.P.S. As an aside, should we discard any books of the Bible that don't contain a specific number of ELS (Equidistant Letter Sequence) events? If the presence indicates God's authorship, the absence implies the opposite... correct?

 

Oh I agree with you completely about translations/transliterations being inaccurate, and that most of the "bible code" claims are complete hogwash. I'm only interested in Gematria of original, hand scribed Hebrew text of The Torah. I don't buy into anything from the New Testament. At best, mathematical relationships of texts originally written in Greek are simply attempts to emulate a higher process. We can build planes, yes they fly, but no way in hell are they the same thing as real birds.

I do have faith that real Gematria practiced with an understanding of Torah, Talmud and Kabbalah will lead a person to greater truths about existence and the universe. My faith in a large number of people actually capable of doing this, and of someone with that character publishing their knowledge to make profit or gain status, I have serious doubts.

 

All this talk about Bible Codes and no one bothers to post some codes found.

Heres one:

Gushing from above Yeshua was my mighty name, and the clouds rejoiced

Anyone else know some?

 

Example of gematria from http://www.inner.org/gematria/gemexamp.htm
[QUOTE] The Hebrew word, chesed

 

Very interesting follow up.

I will point out that I understand "gematria" to be rather different from ELS. (I'll also note that I am woefully unknowledgeable about gematria, but have been researching it since Unabageler's first post about it.) The only similarity (as I understand it) is that both apply numerical relationships to various portions of the Biblical text.

In the case of ELS, the numeric relationship is in terms of the letter spacing used. In gematria, it's various forms of mathematical reduction of the letter values composing a word. My knee-jerk reaction to gematria is not too different from my reaction to ELS. However, gematria seems to have a bit more credibility, even though I've not found strong indications that Kabbalah was practiced (consciously or unconsciously) by the Patriarchs. At the surface, it reminds me of some of the trappings that Christians frequently layer on the Gospel, if for no other reason than to make knowing God seem more complex and mysterious. However, as JonBoy's reminded me, I'll try to be open-minded.

Interestingly, I'm in the middle of teaching a series of Old Testament lessons in my Junior/Senior HS Bible Study on Sunday mornings. We just finished discussing Noah, the flood, and various theories about the ark and the waters. In another couple of weeks, we'll be moving toward Abraham. This may make for an interesting twist to some otherwise dry Southern Baptist lesson material. <g>

Tim

 

Does the "Bible Code" also predict when the world ends - i.e. the return of Christ? If so, [the Bible Code] is definitely a secularized blasphemy and heretical teaching.

 

Hey look, Moby Dick also predicted all kinds of assassinations. http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Divinely inspired or utter hogwash, your call.

 

Well he was looking for something that was already found according to this..

http://www.ronwyatt.com/arkof3.html

 

Fortunately, Ron Wyatt has been clearly identified as a fraud and con-man. Unfortunately, many Christians (desperate to find "scientific" evidence of creationism, the flood, and other Biblical history) have been quick to accept his "research," and have potentially made all Christians look foolish by association.

SiDriver, as far as I know, the Bible Code doesn't make any "end times prophecy."

Tim