Creationists point of view: Discredit science? No but who says claiming a fossil is 10 million years old is science? It would all depend on how this information was derived. What is the proof? Even scientists know that carbon-14 testing is extremely unaccurate. I thought science was discovery through proof, not discovery through imagination. I just don't see any proof nor does anybody else or evolution would not be theory it would be law. Fossils are normally formed when an animal or bones of an animal are incased in mud. The mud protects the bone from deteriorating. I live in Montanta I can walk down any dried up river bed and find stegasaurous bones. One thing I learned though is that if they are not dug up in the spring by fall they will have deteriorated. Scientists have surmised that the animals would have to be caught in a mud slide in order to preserve the bone which would later be fossilized. We find fossils all over the world in great numbers even in extremely flat areas such as North Dakota( very flat). The only explanation that I can find for this is the Great Flood. Scientists have proven that much of the earth has been covered in water at one time. I know this doesn't mean anything most of the earth is covered in water as of now. However scientists now believe that great amounts of water rushing at a rapid rate formed the grand canyon, along with many other areas, I'm just using the grand canyon as one example.
Someone said the Bible does not mention dinosaurs. This is a problem I had with the Bible for quite some time, I mean we know there used to be dinosaurs no mistaking that. Job 40:15- the rest of the chapter gives us a great discription of a dinosaur that no other animal can meet. I used to think it was describing a elephant, or hippo, or rhino. But Job 40:17 "He moveth his tail like a cedar..." I can not think of any other large land animal that has a huge tail especially one I would compare to a cedar tree. According to evolution dinosaurs and humans lived millions of years apart. The first dinosaur bones were discovered in either 1815 or 1915( can't remember for sure) and the term "dinosaur" didn't come about until 1825 or 1925(ten years after the discovery). But there are many books and illustrations other than the Bible that give a perfect description or drawing of a dinosaur, some of these books are believed to be thousands of years old. The Bible does not give many descriptions of animals, why would God choose to describe a dinosaur? What happened to dinosaurs? The Bible teaches us they were destroyed in the Great Flood.
I believe true science. Evolution is not true science, it is based on assumptions. Some say the Bible is based on assumptions, its up to each of us to decide for ourselves, I just find the Bible to be far more accurate, I have yet to discredit it.
Your right, the environment will cease to exist. God didn't want man to sin, He didn't want man to disobey. But He wanted to create a being (human) that would CHOOSE to worship Him. So He put man in charge of the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Well as "legend" goes both Adam and Eve chowed down. This set His creation slowly into the decrepid state that it is (compared to what it was). God then told us throughout His word that He would destroy the earth and create a new heaven and a new earth. That is about the best explanation I can give you, I could go into more detail but it wouldn't add much to what I just said.
We have "million of years" worth of fossils and show me ONE "inbetween" fossil. I don't know of any.

The Bible consists of 66 books written by forty-something authors( I can't remember right now, sorry).
But the Bible was actually written by only one author. For forty plus people to write 66 books and have not one error or one contradiction is impossible, with out the guiding hand of God. (We can't even get 2 people to agree on one thing on this thread)

I agree, that is an easy out that answers nothing. Gods ways make sence to me, it is people I'm trying to figure out Please feel free to ask me anything if you want my point of view, I can't promise I will know the answer or be able to explain myself thoroughly but I will not answer with "God works in mysterious ways".

 

I don't know what scientists you are quoting but I was under the impression that the GC was formed by a smallish amount of water over a very long period of time. I can't imagine how one world covering flood could result in a huge tourist attraction in Nevada.

Proof only that it you believe and search hard enough you can fit the words of the bible to anything.

[QUOTE][B]I believe true science.

 

Excellent - this thread is becoming better than any political argument....

Underdog - excellent replies, but to me you seem to dance around the issues that are raised and give answers that fit the questions you would like to hear.....

So I will put some straight questions to you......

1. Did dinosaurs ever exist?
2. Is the earth closer to 10,000 years old (biblical) or 3 billion years old (scientific)?
3. Roughly how old are the oldest fossils that have been found?
4. Did Dinosaurs and man ever exist at the same time?

 

Elistan, thanks for the links. Very interesting reading...

You basically have outlined the problem here. It is only in the recent past that we have started to collect fossils, all the thousands of years before no one cared about them and they were destroyed. It is very difficult to piece together millions of years of history from a couple of hundred years worth of bone gathering.

The other way they could have been buried is the theory of an asteroid impact. That would have caused immense changes to the environment. Water would have be displaced (and evaporated) in incredible amounts...hence your Great Flood. Fossils can be anywhere on Earth even flat areas as you say, but was that area flat millions of years ago...I don't know but erosion definitely would have a play as would the glaciers. BTW, when Noah built the Ark and gathered 2 of all animals, why did he not grab a couple of dinosaurs?

Could have been a whale...does the Bible mention it walked the Earth? But not all dinosaurs are large, some were probably tailless (although I am not certain). What about the ones that flew..any mention of these? I cannot believe one sentance can summarize all the different types of dinosaurs. You also ask why would God choose to describe animals...well according to creationist, he created them just like us, so why not describe animals also?

I agree with you that evolution in not firm, but it is science. It is continually changing as we learn things, thus the theories have to change. The post by Elistan is an excellent example of this. A gravistar is a new item that needs to be considered. I do not believe that evolution has to be right the first time someone dreamt the theory up...there is too much to cover. Just like everything else we discover, we refine the findings over time, some paths are dead ends, other lead to more ideas and more different paths.

From what I recall, Eve tempted Adam to chow down. So does this make all women evil (no offense to all the women out there )? When this new Heaven and Earth is created would it include man? I am also unsure what is meant by the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Are we to believe that eating an "apple" caused us to start thinking and realize our surroundings? How can something on a tree change the minds of men/women? I know...drugs and hallucinigens but I don't think that it is the same thing as the effect you are describing.

Like I said above, no one has been collecting these fossils during the most of these millions of years, we have to get lucky and find them and we have only been looking for a few hundred years.

A BIG THANK YOU for putting up with all these questions and providing feed back...a great conversation regardless if anyone agrees with each other .

 

The word you want is "inaccurate". Who says it's inaccurate? You? if it's inaccurate it is only so under circumstances where samples are contaminated or not of organic origin, in which case they are dated by comparison with nearby organic matter. Dates obtained this way are never given as absolutes but used only in conjunction with supporting evidence.

You seem to be under the impression that carbon dating is used to date ancient fossils. It is not. They are dated through the uranium-thorium-lead cycle and other sophisticated methods. Carbon dating goes back at most a few tens of thousands of years.What imagination? Where are you getting this? Radioctive dating relies of precise measurements of the ratios of certain isotopes with known half-lives. If some dreamer was just making it up don't you think someone would have noticed by now? That's the thing about science you see. It enshrines the concepts of self-doubt and self-criticism. Scientists actively set out to disprove their own and others theories. Nothing stands up for long in the face of evidence and logic. Hang on a minute, I thought you had no respect for scientists because they make up rubbish like evolution? You can't have it both ways. Science fits together like a jigsaw puzzle. It is all self supporting. Physics, biology, mathematics - all closely linked. You can't just pick and choose which bits of it you accept. The method is the same in all of it. Either you believe the scientific method leads to the discovery of truth or you don't.[QUOTE][B]I believe true science.

 

I can imagine the scene. Noah is delegating collection to his offspring. "Right, you get Bambi, you get the fluffy bunnies, and you, you get the T-Rex. You'll think a little harder next time before you buy me socks for my birthday won't you!". I think that explains why dinosaurs weren't on the ark. And why one of Noah's boys was nicknamed 'Hop-a-long'.

What's more interesting is that the Bible doesn't mention Kangaroos, Koalas, Tasmanian Tigers (solved that problem). Echidnas, Platypi (Platypussies??) etc. We can be fairly sure they exist, fossils or no fossils, but I don't see them on the ark.

The fact that people alive in the 21st century still take these types of stories as literal is beyond me. Especially from a culture (ancient Hebrew) that was renown for iconic story telling (parables). You guys would have a much easier time if you weren't trying to be so precise. The devil is in the the details you know!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tokyo_james
[B]4.

 

And birds, which are the closest living relatives of the animals most people are referring to when they say "dinosaurs". If you ever wanted to know what dinosaur tasted like, I'd guess something like chicken

 

Now this is the sort of answer I expected from Underdog not from you..... it perfectly skirts the issue that I was raising, while answering the question from a perspective the suits the person answering . I think that it was quiet obvious what I meant.

Underdog suggests that the earth is only around 6-10,000 years old. He also seems to accept that "dinosaurs" (for this please think of the extinct types such as the pterodactyl, t-rex, you know, the Jurassic Park type ones ) did exist. I want to know when they existed....

 

LOL, sorry. But if we'd've stuck to the issues we wouldn't be here now. This thread started about what came first, the KFC Chicken Fillet Burger or the McDonalds Bacon and Egg McMuffin (no??).

My answer was actually targetted more at those creationists who think evolution is Darwin on acid. Not only can we show intermediary fossils, but there are even a few living ones around.

I think you are trying to bait Underdog, and I won't stand for it! That's my job!