looks like its on with iraq
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From: Rome, GA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big L
[B]
The "carrier killers" are very effective against large U.S carriers, but as I said before, it is a defensive weapon. Even with the combined force of the
[B]
The "carrier killers" are very effective against large U.S carriers, but as I said before, it is a defensive weapon. Even with the combined force of the
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From: Land of the landeaus
Originally posted by Lee355
"Terrorists" are not inherently evil, as I've said before they just are exposed to different experiences in their lives and they are persuaded to make certain choices.
"Terrorists" are not inherently evil, as I've said before they just are exposed to different experiences in their lives and they are persuaded to make certain choices.
I'm sure in your own mind you have your own definition of patriotism but the freedom and the price asked of military men and women to secure it won't be guaranteed by any leader getting in front of a television camera to look at the enemy while crying out "we wish the fighting would end."
You apparently think it is the responsibility of the VICTIMS of terrorism to end it. Here's a novel approach...how about we ask of all our military men and women overseas fighting terrorism to just pack up their gear and return home. If they hurry, maybe we can get them tickets to the Super Bowl. I'm sure within two weeks, peace will be restored throughout the world and we'd never have to worry about another bus bomb in Israel or an embassy explosion. In the meantime, why don't we offer up one big blank check of apologies to the purveyors of world violence. "We're sorry if we've offended anyone with our stand on terrorism. We'll just isolate ourselves from your world here on in."
I could try and continue this thought process but others have said it better than this old retired military man who has folded my share of American flags over the coffins of friends. To all of those who think war is never the answer:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
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From: Glendale/Burbank/LA
I don't know Russ... somehow I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling from your argument against Lee's point(s).
On the surface, I think we should go to war for the simple reason that Iraq poses a pretty big threat to world stability (if it can be proven that is, and only if everyone's heart is clearly in it!). BUT I also think that the root of the problem is this whole culture-clash retaliation/revenge thing we have going on, and that to Lee's point(s), to solve that means someone taking the first step to say "Let's not do this anymore". Yet we can't do that, because of people like you Russ. Because here you are arguing for the superficial -- that we must go to war because people have been directly affected by terrorism and therefore revenge must be had. "After all, look at how devastated all those families are." I don't fault this argument at all. It's a natural consequence of the tragedy. But this need for revenge and retaliation due to misunderstandings is exactly what we have to grin and bear, and fight against (and not in a violent way).... we as humans have done this to an extent which is why were are even a civilization. Also Russ, it's not about being apologetic about our stance on terrorism and pulling back our forces... it's about world leaders declaring that we as a planet have a political and testosterone-charged problem, and that we need to take steps to fix it. Start with an agreement between leaders and trickle down the education of human compassion from there. (Idealistic, yes. Naive, it should NOT be! We must make it happen!) Unfortunately all our leaders are seemingly power-hungry and have ulterior motives supporting every action.... which complicates things. I haven't thought deeply enough to figure out how we could even begin to get around this, short of going "leaderless".
I wonder if we are we looking at a chicken-and-the-egg problem here....
[/ramble]
On the surface, I think we should go to war for the simple reason that Iraq poses a pretty big threat to world stability (if it can be proven that is, and only if everyone's heart is clearly in it!). BUT I also think that the root of the problem is this whole culture-clash retaliation/revenge thing we have going on, and that to Lee's point(s), to solve that means someone taking the first step to say "Let's not do this anymore". Yet we can't do that, because of people like you Russ. Because here you are arguing for the superficial -- that we must go to war because people have been directly affected by terrorism and therefore revenge must be had. "After all, look at how devastated all those families are." I don't fault this argument at all. It's a natural consequence of the tragedy. But this need for revenge and retaliation due to misunderstandings is exactly what we have to grin and bear, and fight against (and not in a violent way).... we as humans have done this to an extent which is why were are even a civilization. Also Russ, it's not about being apologetic about our stance on terrorism and pulling back our forces... it's about world leaders declaring that we as a planet have a political and testosterone-charged problem, and that we need to take steps to fix it. Start with an agreement between leaders and trickle down the education of human compassion from there. (Idealistic, yes. Naive, it should NOT be! We must make it happen!) Unfortunately all our leaders are seemingly power-hungry and have ulterior motives supporting every action.... which complicates things. I haven't thought deeply enough to figure out how we could even begin to get around this, short of going "leaderless".
I wonder if we are we looking at a chicken-and-the-egg problem here....
[/ramble]
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From: Los Angeles
I don't know you personally, but the above statement is hysterically ignorant at worst and naive at best. You really need to spend some time overseas getting to know the families of those affected by terrorism before you simply try to whitewash it as a condition created by "different experiences."
I don't know you personally, but I'll guess that decades of military service has an affect on the way your brain processes information. There's a reason behind the emotion you feel toward terrorism. As you've said you've lost friends while in the military and that has a life altering effect on you. You might not agree but I believe that moving toward a better state of existing as inhabitants of this planet is more important than fueling a fire of hatred that will only lead to more devastation and more killing. Remember my line about greed, anger, and stupidity? This is where anger comes in.
I'm sure in your own mind you have your own definition of patriotism
Well I live a more comfortable life than most people outside of this country. This country is full of great places & great people. This country was also full of great places and great people before British decided to settle here, but, as an American, being advantaged from that horrible part of history, and other parts of history, also makes me feel a little shameful. I do love this country and the principles it was founded on, but I don't stand by every action our government takes and I think our president is an idiot. I also believe that our dependance on oil played a role in the decision to prepare for war with Iraq. By the way, do you know what the Kyoto treaty is? Do you care? Do you stand by our president's decision to abandon this treaty because "the economy of a superpower must come first"? Patriotism is important, but so is having a free mind.
but the freedom and the price asked of military men and women to secure it won't be guaranteed by any leader getting in front of a television camera to look at the enemy while crying out "we wish the fighting would end."
No it won't, but that doesn't change the fact that they found a loophole in the system. These individuals did what the government is there to protect us against. They killed thousands of American people, did massive damage to our largest city and our economy. All someone needs is the motive to kill and the power to do so, and they can. In this case the motive was hate against the United States of America, and the power was knowledge that a man from Saudi Arabia can iimmigrate to the United States on a student VISA, learn how to fly a plane, and after careful planning and coordination, sneak box cutters on board a plane and take control of the cockpit for the sole purpose of flying it into a building. People will always have power because technology and the incredibly fast spread of information as it exists today allows people to do these things. Ever seen this? http://isuisse.ifrance.com/emmaf/anarcook/...ndanarcook.html
So now that power is out of the way, what about motive? Well there are a lot of Arabs in this country and I'm sure some of them hate America. Of course if it ever reached the point where they despised it enough to kill themselves so that they could kill other Americans, we would have had a bus bombing already. A person's view of America directly affects the motive. The view of America is affected when America kills a lot of Arabs or when Jerry Falwell tells everyone that Muhammad was a terrorist. The view of America is affected when we send troops to the Middle East, and the view of America will change dramatically depending on how these next months and years unfold. EVERYONE in this country has the power to kill people, all they need is a motive. The FBI is not going to prevent all terrorist acts from occuring in this country. It doesn't work that way. If a person wants to kill someone, given a small amount of knowledge, he can. The only thing we can change is how others think of us as Americans.
You apparently think it is the responsibility of the VICTIMS of terrorism to end it.
Yes it is, everyone needs to make sure that other people in the world don't hate us, because if other people hate us enough, they will try to kill us.
Here's a novel approach...how about we ask of all our military men and women overseas fighting terrorism to just pack up their gear and return home. If they hurry, maybe we can get them tickets to the Super Bowl. I'm sure within two weeks, peace will be restored throughout the world and we'd never have to worry about another bus bomb in Israel or an embassy explosion. In the meantime, why don't we offer up one big blank check of apologies to the purveyors of world violence. "We're sorry if we've offended anyone with our stand on terrorism. We'll just isolate ourselves from your world here on in."
That would be great, I'm sure our military personell would love to come home to their families and tell them all kinds of wonderful stories about dropping bombs and flying missiles into heavily populated areas and killing over 3,000 innocent people. But hey, we had a chance of killing Osama Bin Laden. Oh and then there was that whole "new government" thing that didn't really work out too well. What is the first thing that you have to do to establish a government in a country where there isn't a government?
Is it to ask the IMF for a loan? No.
Is it to appoint 50 ministers? No.
Is it to hold an election? No.
The first thing that you have to do to establish a government is to form a sufficiently large, well armed and obedient force to suppress or kill your competitors. That is the bloody vile horrible truth about the formation of a first government. Government is the possession of overwhelming force which can be used to prevent alternative governments from forming. I could go on and on about this, but I'm off on a bit of a tangent. The point is Afghanistan didn't attack America. Osama Bin Laden did. It's one thing to send marines or Seals into a foreign country to assassinate an important figure. It's another to fly warplanes over the country and drop bombs on heavily populated areas and kill & displace thousands of people. America had bloodlust for Afghanistan, and the army satisfied it. What else did we accomplish? Sorry to tell you this, but not much of anything.
I could try and continue this thought process but others have said it better than this old retired military man who has folded my share of American flags over the coffins of friends. To all of those who think war is never the answer:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
I suppose I could continue this as well, but others have said it better than this twenty one year old that just got back from a 5 week trip to West Africa to visit his mother who volunteers for the Peace Corps teaching at a deaf school in an impoverished village, who's had time to really see how simple everything in life can be, but realized that the blanket of protection that the American government allows us to sleep under every night also gets pulled over our eyes sometimes.
"The struggle between for and against is the mind's worst disease."
-Bruce Lee
I don't know you personally, but I'll guess that decades of military service has an affect on the way your brain processes information. There's a reason behind the emotion you feel toward terrorism. As you've said you've lost friends while in the military and that has a life altering effect on you. You might not agree but I believe that moving toward a better state of existing as inhabitants of this planet is more important than fueling a fire of hatred that will only lead to more devastation and more killing. Remember my line about greed, anger, and stupidity? This is where anger comes in.
I'm sure in your own mind you have your own definition of patriotism
Well I live a more comfortable life than most people outside of this country. This country is full of great places & great people. This country was also full of great places and great people before British decided to settle here, but, as an American, being advantaged from that horrible part of history, and other parts of history, also makes me feel a little shameful. I do love this country and the principles it was founded on, but I don't stand by every action our government takes and I think our president is an idiot. I also believe that our dependance on oil played a role in the decision to prepare for war with Iraq. By the way, do you know what the Kyoto treaty is? Do you care? Do you stand by our president's decision to abandon this treaty because "the economy of a superpower must come first"? Patriotism is important, but so is having a free mind.
but the freedom and the price asked of military men and women to secure it won't be guaranteed by any leader getting in front of a television camera to look at the enemy while crying out "we wish the fighting would end."
No it won't, but that doesn't change the fact that they found a loophole in the system. These individuals did what the government is there to protect us against. They killed thousands of American people, did massive damage to our largest city and our economy. All someone needs is the motive to kill and the power to do so, and they can. In this case the motive was hate against the United States of America, and the power was knowledge that a man from Saudi Arabia can iimmigrate to the United States on a student VISA, learn how to fly a plane, and after careful planning and coordination, sneak box cutters on board a plane and take control of the cockpit for the sole purpose of flying it into a building. People will always have power because technology and the incredibly fast spread of information as it exists today allows people to do these things. Ever seen this? http://isuisse.ifrance.com/emmaf/anarcook/...ndanarcook.html
So now that power is out of the way, what about motive? Well there are a lot of Arabs in this country and I'm sure some of them hate America. Of course if it ever reached the point where they despised it enough to kill themselves so that they could kill other Americans, we would have had a bus bombing already. A person's view of America directly affects the motive. The view of America is affected when America kills a lot of Arabs or when Jerry Falwell tells everyone that Muhammad was a terrorist. The view of America is affected when we send troops to the Middle East, and the view of America will change dramatically depending on how these next months and years unfold. EVERYONE in this country has the power to kill people, all they need is a motive. The FBI is not going to prevent all terrorist acts from occuring in this country. It doesn't work that way. If a person wants to kill someone, given a small amount of knowledge, he can. The only thing we can change is how others think of us as Americans.
You apparently think it is the responsibility of the VICTIMS of terrorism to end it.
Yes it is, everyone needs to make sure that other people in the world don't hate us, because if other people hate us enough, they will try to kill us.
Here's a novel approach...how about we ask of all our military men and women overseas fighting terrorism to just pack up their gear and return home. If they hurry, maybe we can get them tickets to the Super Bowl. I'm sure within two weeks, peace will be restored throughout the world and we'd never have to worry about another bus bomb in Israel or an embassy explosion. In the meantime, why don't we offer up one big blank check of apologies to the purveyors of world violence. "We're sorry if we've offended anyone with our stand on terrorism. We'll just isolate ourselves from your world here on in."
That would be great, I'm sure our military personell would love to come home to their families and tell them all kinds of wonderful stories about dropping bombs and flying missiles into heavily populated areas and killing over 3,000 innocent people. But hey, we had a chance of killing Osama Bin Laden. Oh and then there was that whole "new government" thing that didn't really work out too well. What is the first thing that you have to do to establish a government in a country where there isn't a government?
Is it to ask the IMF for a loan? No.
Is it to appoint 50 ministers? No.
Is it to hold an election? No.
The first thing that you have to do to establish a government is to form a sufficiently large, well armed and obedient force to suppress or kill your competitors. That is the bloody vile horrible truth about the formation of a first government. Government is the possession of overwhelming force which can be used to prevent alternative governments from forming. I could go on and on about this, but I'm off on a bit of a tangent. The point is Afghanistan didn't attack America. Osama Bin Laden did. It's one thing to send marines or Seals into a foreign country to assassinate an important figure. It's another to fly warplanes over the country and drop bombs on heavily populated areas and kill & displace thousands of people. America had bloodlust for Afghanistan, and the army satisfied it. What else did we accomplish? Sorry to tell you this, but not much of anything.
I could try and continue this thought process but others have said it better than this old retired military man who has folded my share of American flags over the coffins of friends. To all of those who think war is never the answer:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
I suppose I could continue this as well, but others have said it better than this twenty one year old that just got back from a 5 week trip to West Africa to visit his mother who volunteers for the Peace Corps teaching at a deaf school in an impoverished village, who's had time to really see how simple everything in life can be, but realized that the blanket of protection that the American government allows us to sleep under every night also gets pulled over our eyes sometimes.
"The struggle between for and against is the mind's worst disease."
-Bruce Lee