Improper use of beliefs does not warrant excluding the beliefs themselves. Looking at Christianity, God's only sanction of war was with Israel claiming land. Since the death of Jesus Christ, the only "war" that the Christian God truly advocates is a spiritual war, not a physical war. I cannot always agree with what has been done in the past (and is being done today) in God's name, but neither can I agree with labelling these beliefs as "opiates for the masses". I would venture a guess that you haven't truly experienced Christianity, else you'd not say it. Those I know and worship with are the most peaceful, kindhearted, and yet disciplined people I know. Your argument, applied to government, would mean that we shouldn't have governments because, as seen today and historically, they often do things wrongly or use power incorrectly. Should we also do away with them because of the improper deeds of some governments? Base line is this: the beliefs are fine, but the human application is often seriously flawed.

Christianity installs fear? Perhaps yours does but mine doesn't. Your experience is not the same as mine (or many Christians), so I must reject that statement outright. Perhaps you are speaking from ignorance or else have been under the tutelage of someone that believes that fear is the only motivator in Christianity. Either way, a lamentable state of mind...

Gullibility means that you will believe almost anything, without any real basis for believing - you just accept things. Faith means believing something without a wholly proven and verified set of facts. Faith in God (for me) is not blind - it's a result of what I've seen Him do. Based on the past, I can have faith in the present and future.

People aren't good nor bad? What about those that have been taught what is the "proper" or "right" or "moral" thing to do, then ignore it? I'm not talking necessarily about religious instruction, merely the moral base that each of us is taught as we grow up. Different experiences? Sorry, but that's psychobabble to me, a way of blaming what we are on what has happened to us. In my opinion, we define how our experiences affect us. The way things are structured today, people get away with murder, rape, physical abuse, and other things all because they "had a bad childhood", etc, etc. With perhaps a few exceptions, it's all an excuse. I've never been physically abused, but I've had a rougher time in different ways that many others, but that gives me no excuse to do the same things all over again. Aside from complete separation from the rest of the world, there is no way a person can help but learn the "proper" way to live and function in society. Of course, those that are insane and physically sick, etc, etc, are not excluded here - we're talking about people that are, more or less, "normal".

World peace is a joke - it won't happen, certainly not permanently, even semi-permanently. There may be VERY brief periods of peace worldwide, but believe me, it'll never really happen. Beneath the surface, it's all a cauldron of hate, bitterness, and greed, untouchable or unremovable by even the largest mass of people filled with compassion.



Number 1 is obviously the way we'll go. Number two sounds nice but is completely impractical. It won't happen. As for brainwashed Arabs killing people, I guess you've never heard of what Americans have done all around the world. Yes, that's right - they've KILLED people (or supported those that KILLED people). Get off your high horse and lose the naivety - every government is doing it, not just the Arabs. The Arabs just tend to be a little more open and proud about it. I think you're as brainwashed as those Arabs if you truly believe that they are the only ones doing this (or else are assigning blame to them).

Number 3 is obviously not a choice either, as you agree.

In short, number two (the first bit of it) sounds nice but isn't really practical or feasible - it can't happen. My opinion? We're too far gone. Nothing will be done soon enough to stop all of what's going on - we're a destructive race with far too few people that are conscious of how delicate this world (and it's population) really is. It might take 50 years, it might take 100, or even 1000, but it'll end - it has to do it.

Bleak? Yes. Inevitable? Certainly. Hopeless? Yes.............to some.

My $0.02 <putting fireproof suit on>.

Sorry if I got a bit too "religious" for some, but some of those comments were rather ignorant (imho) and I felt a slight correction was warranted.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lee355


I don't know you personally, but I'll guess that decades of military service has an affect on the way your brain processes information.
Absolutely. Because I have both the experience of a military career AND a decade post-retirement, I can see this issue from both sides with the background of being among the terrorist community for three decades.
There's a reason behind the emotion you feel toward terrorism. As you've said you've lost friends while in the military and that has a life altering effect on you.
It's not the men that I've buried which motivates my thought process; afterall, as military brothers and sisters, who else will bare the burden of a free America? The innocent men, women and children thoughout the world that CONTINUE to live and die each day among the constant threat of terrorsim...well, that DOES motivate me to support this country's efforts to eliminate as much of it as we can. No one (especially military folks) believes it is possible to completely wipe away this scum from the earth but it's a war that must be fought to REDUCE the threats
and loss of lives.
You might not agree but I believe that moving toward a better state of existing as inhabitants of this planet is more important than fueling a fire of hatred that will only lead to more devastation and more killing.
Noble words but you continually talk of an ENDING but fail to address the MIDDLE of the journey. You expect the US and its allies to turn its back on terrorism and in some magic circumstance of fate, terrorism will cease to exist? I'll hazard a guess your high school history book must of had the Hitler and Idi Amin chapters missing.
Remember my line about greed, anger, and stupidity?
You mean words that best describe the root of terrorism?
This is where anger comes in.
Manifested in the bombing of buses in Israel on a monthly basis. These killers do it because they're simply "misunderstood?"
I do love this country and the principles it was founded on, but I don't stand by every action our government takes and I think our president is an idiot.
Well, I certainly don't think Bush is an idiot just because I didn't vote for him nor completely agree with his policies. From that statement alone, I think it would be difficult to converse with you face to face because your arguments are fueled by passion without any sense of reason.
I also believe that our dependance on oil played a role in the decision to prepare for war with Iraq.
Quickly...how much oil do we get from Iraq and how much from Russia? Let me guess...you think the son is trying to kill the man who tried to kill his father? Your assessment of our President's difficult decision to send our nation's sons and daughers off to war for oil is elementary and frankly, stupid. A typical liberal point of view...the attempt to frame a course of action based on immoralities of purpose.
Patriotism is important, but so is having a free mind.
A free mind in a dead body is worthless. Go tell that to the victims of 9-11. That we ought to call off our fight against terrorism and those who finance it because it's better to have a free mind than it is to have a free world.

... sneak box cutters on board a plane and take control of the cockpit
Actually, box cutters were perfectly legal at the time. There was no need to sneak anything on the plane. This, for me anyway, was the sad part of the day.
People will always have power because technology and the incredibly fast spread of information as it exists today allows people to do these things.
And those who HAVE the power will always have enemies. This is why most countries overseas love Americans but hate America. They see the gun before they see the person holding it but more importantly never bother to ask themselves, "why has this person traveled thousands of miles to point a gun at me? Could it be something I've done?"

Well there are a lot of Arabs in this country and I'm sure some of them hate America. Of course if it ever reached the point where they despised it enough to kill themselves so that they could kill other Americans, we would have had a bus bombing already.
Ah yes....one hand shakes thy neighbor while the other plots his death. I'd say that pretty much sums it up for me.
The FBI is not going to prevent all terrorist acts from occuring in this country. It doesn't work that way.
Really? Whew! For a minute there I'd forgotten everything I had been taught over the past 20-25 years. If a person wants to kill someone, given a small amount of knowledge, he can. The only thing we can change is how others think of us as Americans.
Wrong. What we CAN change is the NUMBER of innocents killed. You have no idea, you really don't and I don't fault your ignorance, on the incredibly HUGE number of terrorist acts that are PREVENTED thanks to the brave men and women who work together with our military to support the intelligence community. Like an airplane crash, you only hear the ones that DIDN'T land on the evening news. You seem to think it's some sort of waste to even TRY and reduce terrorism with our current method.
I'll ask you....what do you think is an HONEST way for Americans to never have to face this hatred again? Do you really think it comes down to us simply changing our policies? Like overnight...the world will become a safer place because Bush adopts some Ghandi-approach to handling madmen?
I wrote the following: "You apparently think it is the responsibility of the VICTIMS of terrorism to end it"
and you replied:
Yes it is, everyone needs to make sure that other people in the world don't hate us..
I had the motivation to continue the discourse, but your response above to that last paragraph is incredibly insulting and disrespectful to the dead.
Let me end by referencing your opinion above...that it's somehow the VICTIMS of terrorism who are responsible for its ending.
How can children blown to pieces from the spark of a terrorist's bomb mend fences?

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JonBoy
Improper use of beliefs does not warrant excluding the beliefs themselves. Looking at Christianity, God's only sanction of war was with Israel claiming land. Since the death of Jesus Christ, the only "war" that the Christian God truly advocates is a spiritual war, not a physical war. I cannot always agree with what has been done in the past (and is being done today) in God's name, but neither can I agree with labelling these beliefs as "opiates for the masses". I would venture a guess that you haven't truly experienced Christianity, else you'd not say it. Those I know and worship with are the most peaceful, kindhearted, and yet disciplined people I know. Your argument, applied to government, would mean that we shouldn't have governments because, as seen today and historically, they often do things wrongly or use power incorrectly. Should we also do away with them because of the improper deeds of some governments? Base line is this: the beliefs are fine, but the human application is often seriously flawed.

Do you have the power to question the very belief that you've grown up with and have been taught since day one? Have you ever asked yourself "Why am I a Christian? Why do I believe in the existence of a supernatural being?" I'm guessing not, because your mind has been exposed to so much of it that it is and always has been an important part of your character. There are a lot of unexplained phenomena that have occured on this planet and in this universe that science has no evidence to explain. The creation of our planet, the birth of our universe, evolution... People have a hard time leaving things unexplained and it's a lot easier for them to just put a label on something. God made Earth. God made the universe. God created 2 white humans that reproduced and eventually spawned into 6 billion people. Some people believe these things but I don't.

Christianity installs fear? Perhaps yours does but mine doesn't. Your experience is not the same as mine (or many Christians), so I must reject that statement outright. Perhaps you are speaking from ignorance or else have been under the tutelage of someone that believes that fear is the only motivator in Christianity. Either way, a lamentable state of mind...

You're speaking from behind a mask of Christianity right now and don't even realize it. I have Christian friends and family and I've been to church plenty of times. I don't believe Christians are free thinkers, and free thinking is key to finding the real truth behind everything. Do you believe everything that is written in the bible? Do you believe everything your pastor tells you? Why?

Gullibility means that you will believe almost anything, without any real basis for believing - you just accept things. Faith means believing something without a wholly proven and verified set of facts. Faith in God (for me) is not blind - it's a result of what I've seen Him do. Based on the past, I can have faith in the present and future.

That's fine, again I am not here to disprove the existence of a supernatural being, but if you don't mind me asking, what have you seen him do?

People aren't good nor bad? What about those that have been taught what is the "proper" or "right" or "moral" thing to do, then ignore it?

No they aren't. People are brought into this world as human beings and their character takes form as their brains experience different things.

I'm not talking necessarily about religious instruction, merely the moral base that each of us is taught as we grow up. Different experiences? Sorry, but that's psychobabble to me, a way of blaming what we are on what has happened to us.

How is that? You believe that people are just a "certain way" when they are born and will remain that way forever? If a man was born without any senses - No sight, hearing, touch, taste or smell, and this person was kept on life support for 18 years, would this person have a single thought in his head?

Everything we ARE is ultimately a result of our 5 senses being stimulated in one way or another. Our brain makes decisions, value judgements, analyzes things, and holds a bank of memories all as a reult of our senses being stimulated.

In my opinion, we define how our experiences affect us. The way things are structured today, people get away with murder, rape, physical abuse, and other things all because they "had a bad childhood", etc, etc. With perhaps a few exceptions, it's all an excuse. I've never been physically abused, but I've had a rougher time in different ways that many others, but that gives me no excuse to do the same things all over again. Aside from complete separation from the rest of the world, there is no way a person can help but learn the "proper" way to live and function in society. Of course, those that are insane and physically sick, etc, etc, are not excluded here - we're talking about people that are, more or less, "normal".

Even the decisions people make to do the "right" or "wrong" thing are a result of his or her past experiences! Without past experience, what are you? Your mind is just a blank page. Every ACTION you take is the result of a THOUGHT. Every THOUGHT you think is a result of any of your five senses being stimulated at the present time or at any time in the past.

World peace is a joke - it won't happen, certainly not permanently, even semi-permanently. There may be VERY brief periods of peace worldwide, but believe me, it'll never really happen. Beneath the surface, it's all a cauldron of hate, bitterness, and greed, untouchable or unremovable by even the largest mass of people filled with compassion.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, as a realist I also tend to believe that the world is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't analyze why we are in this state and how we might be able to possibly get ourselves out of it. I myself have analyzed this situation down to the point that as long as we have a high level of Greed, Anger, and Stupidity in the characters of people with any sort of power, we will have problems. Christianity pays no attention to greed, anger, and stupidity, and neither does Islam. I'm not saying these two religions are WRONG, they're just different from my own beliefs. I firmly believe that the situation won't get any better unless we all change something WITHIN US. The reason this situation is so grim at the present time is that the amount of power that a man can have has gotten out of hand. One man now has the power to kill millions.

Number 1 is obviously the way we'll go. Number two sounds nice but is completely impractical. It won't happen.

I realize that, but that doesn't mean we should just give up and not do anything about it. I'm 21 years old right now but I don't think, I know that the spread of my own belief will make the world a better place, improve the quality of life among everyone, and might actually solve some problems. Is that worth fighting for? I think so.

As for brainwashed Arabs killing people, I guess you've never heard of what Americans have done all around the world. Yes, that's right - they've KILLED people (or supported those that KILLED people). Get off your high horse and lose the naivety - every government is doing it, not just the Arabs. The Arabs just tend to be a little more open and proud about it. I think you're as brainwashed as those Arabs if you truly believe that they are the only ones doing this (or else are assigning blame to them).

Read my last post about us killing over 3,000 Afghan peasants and displacing many more and you'll see what sort of stand I take on what the American government has done with its military.

Number 3 is obviously not a choice either, as you agree.

In short, number two (the first bit of it) sounds nice but isn't really practical or feasible - it can't happen. My opinion? We're too far gone. Nothing will be done soon enough to stop all of what's going on - we're a destructive race with far too few people that are conscious of how delicate this world (and it's population) really is. It might take 50 years, it might take 100, or even 1000, but it'll end - it has to do it.

Ah, but it can. The chances are slim, but I firmly believe this is our ONLY WAY OUT and that is worth a shot.

Bleak? Yes. Inevitable? Certainly. Hopeless? Yes.............to some.

So, what are you saying? We should all just ignore the problem and hope it doesn't affect us?

My $0.02 <putting fireproof suit on>. Sorry if I got a bit too "religious" for some, but some of those comments were rather ignorant (imho) and I felt a slight correction was warranted.

Don't worry about the fireproof suit, even as I've been called ignorant and naive by two different people on this thread I haven't resorted to personal attacks because of my beliefs of anger, greed, and stupidity. We're talking on a message board here so I obviously can't hear tones of voice, but I'll venture to guess that both you and Russ were both offended by my views. If emotions spring up into your mind when you read a person's thread on an S2000 message board, I can only imagine what sort of emotions come up when you think about Islamic fanatics killing thousands of Americans.

Anger is the result of one of two things: injustice, or one's ego being challenged.

 

Absolutely. Because I have both the experience of a military career AND a decade post-retirement, I can see this issue from both sides with the background of being among the terrorist community for three decades. It's not the men that I've buried which motivates my thought process; afterall, as military brothers and sisters, who else will bare the burden of a free America?

What does a "Free America" mean? The ability to get our way with everyone we butt heads with because we have a stronger economy and a stronger military?

The innocent men, women and children thoughout the world that CONTINUE to live and die each day among the constant threat of terrorsim...well, that DOES motivate me to support this country's efforts to eliminate as much of it as we can. No one (especially military folks) believes it is possible to completely wipe away this scum from the earth but it's a war that must be fought to REDUCE the threats and loss of lives.

That's a perfectly valid argument, but as I've said before there are two elements that lead to "terrorism". There's motive and there's power. All this time we've been trying to remove power from people who have the motive, but maybe we should be trying to remove the motive from future generations of human beings that have a lot of power?

Noble words but you continually talk of an ENDING but fail to address the MIDDLE of the journey. You expect the US and its allies to turn its back on terrorism and in some magic circumstance of fate, terrorism will cease to exist?

I don't propose turning our backs on terrorism, I propose getting to the heart of the problem, which is the same as the heart of every problem that exists in the world today. I believe that we as human beings need to be taught how our minds work so that we can recognize when greed, anger, and/or stupidity are clouding sound judgement. I do understand that there are people that have power and motive right now, and therefore the world is at risk of a major catastrophic incident. Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong II pose a threat to world peace, human happiness, and environmental harmony. I wish something could be done about this that wouldn't lead to more hatred, but I don't believe it's possible. I really do hope that our military is able to remove Saddam Hussein from power without a hitch and is able to persuade Kim Jong II into abandoning his nuclear weapons program, but what are the chances? Again we are trying to remove power from people with motive, and not removing motive from people with power. It would be great if Saddam Hussein used his power to disappear off the face of Iraq and allow the United States to remove, capture, or convert the Republican guard into an army that will obediently defend whatever government is placed into power when we're done bombing the shit out of this country. It would be great if Kim Jong II was persuaded to abide by the Non Proliferation Treaty he signed in 1994 so that we could avoid a potentially devastating conflict which may end in the death of millions of human beings and destruction of a large part of the planet and its other inhabitants. Once this happens, there is no turning back. The next mushroom cloud that shows its face all over the news media will most likely be the first step toward the end of the world as we know it.

I'll hazard a guess your high school history book must of had the Hitler and Idi Amin chapters missing.

Are you saying that I should use emotion toward injustice to fuel hate-filled views toward other human beings? Adolf Hitler was a human being. There are causes that lead to his radical views and immense power. If you have some time, read through a quick biography of his life and tell me if you think he was just born an evil man.

http://www.stokesey.demon.co.uk/wwii/ahitler.html

You mean words that best describe the root of terrorism?

No, I mean words that best describe the root of all of the world's problems.

Manifested in the bombing of buses in Israel on a monthly basis. These killers do it because they're simply "misunderstood?"

They do it because they have motive, and because technology and knowhow as it exists today give them the power to act. They have motive becase they feel their land was invaded by jews in the early 1900s and that the jews are using their military to kill their brothers and sisters. This entire situation isn't just black and white, there are always shades of grey. Palestinians are poor Arabs that have no money, but they have lives to sacrifice and they can be trained to fight back against Israel if their desire is strong enough. They can be trained to strap a bomb to themselves and walk onto a crowded city bus and touch two wires together. This is the only way they have to fight against an entity that they truly believe is an enemy of their land and their god.

Well, I certainly don't think Bush is an idiot just because I didn't vote for him nor completely agree with his policies. From that statement alone, I think it would be difficult to converse with you face to face because your arguments are fueled by passion without any sense of reason.

I find it strange that you believe my arguments are fueled by passion without any sense of reason, which is actually the exact opposite. Anyway, by "idiot", I mean this is a man who lacks knowledge and intelligence. Perhaps he had one too many cans of beer or lines of cocaine during his college years. Perhaps he spent too much time partying and not enough time in the state of learning & realization that smart people involve their brains in regularly. The man cannot speak coherently for 20 seconds without the aid of a teleprompter, and even then he still stutters like a man who lacks intelligence. The man does not know a great deal about world affairs. This is all perfectly fine for a powerless person. Plenty of people go through their lives the same way this man had, but none of them have become the President of the United States.

Quickly...how much oil do we get from Iraq and how much from Russia?

800,000 barrels a day from Iraq, and I don't believe any from Russia. By the way, Saddam Hussein DOES use money from a loophole in the oil for food program to build more of an arsenal. Every time we fill up our cars we give money to Saddam Hussein. And no, this is not coming from that SUV owners = terrorist funders commercial, a man who had dealings with Saddam Hussein spilled information to the United Nations that Saddam Hussein sells low-cost "accounts" to oil companies right from under the nose of the U.S. and U.N. and uses that money to fund an arsenal. American oil companies do this and so do European oil companies. Of course all of them will deny this, but never underestimate the power of profit in the eyes of an uncaring capitalist.

Let me guess...you think the son is trying to kill the man who tried to kill his father?

Well, he did publicly say "After all, this is the man that tried to kill my father", but I don't think that played a major role. When a human being makes a decision, he gathers all of the positive aspects of that decision as well as all of the negative. To Bush, the positives of going to war with Iraq include: Removal of power from a tyrant, improved economy, access to trillions of dollars in oil, a new foothold in an unstable region, the quenching of a thirst for vengeance that he and a lot of other Americans share, and maybe, deep down, satisfaction knowing that he killed or ruined the life of a man that tried to kill his father. The negative aspects of this decision include loss of American lives, expenditure of American dollars to fund this war, loss of Iraqi civilian lives (probably isn't a huge factor but I'm not a mind reader), displacement of possibly millions of Iraqi civilians which may lead to refugee immigration to its surrounding countries, increased hatred toward the United States, risk of retaliation from Saddam or other Arabs in Iraq, America, or anywhere else in the world, which manifests itself as the risk of more loss of lives of Americans, Jews, Iraqi citizens, or citizens living in bordering countries, or environmental damage or as Saddam gets further backed into a corner and has fewer and fewer options as the days go on, or, finally, the threat of something that nobody's thought of yet. You put the negatives and positives together to form a decision and that's what has already happened. Does the fact that Saddam Hussein tried to kill our president's father play into the decision to invade? Maybe. The important question is: Would we be going to war if Saddam Hussein didn't try to kill his father? I don't know the answer to that one, but I would hope not. It really all depends on how much weight each of these positive and negative motives has on our president's mind.

Your assessment of our President's difficult decision to send our nation's sons and daughers off to war for oil is elementary and frankly, stupid.

Not just for oil, we have other reasons to be there. Perhaps if you actually thought about and considered what I was saying instead of thinking that you're right and everyone else is wrong, you wouldn't have the need for emotionally charged statements such as that one. Are we going to war for oil? No. Does oil play a role in this decision? Yes. This way of thinking that other people's views of the world are "stupid" is exactly what has put us into the spot we are right now.

A typical liberal point of view...the attempt to frame a course of action based on immoralities of purpose.

Cause and effect.

A free mind in a dead body is worthless. Go tell that to the victims of 9-11. That we ought to call off our fight against terrorism and those who finance it because it's better to have a free mind than it is to have a free world.

Actually the only thing that anyone knows for sure is that we're all going to die at some point. Actions that we as human beings take are influenced directly by fear of death. Death is a part of life. We're all going to have to face it at some point, so let's try addressing the more important things. The natural resources that were built up over 60 million years have been consumed in a mere three centuries. Americans consume more than any other people in the world and we use our economic and military power to influence others. Maybe other people have a problem with that?

Actually, box cutters were perfectly legal at the time. There was no need to sneak anything on the plane. This, for me anyway, was the sad part of the day.

Good thing to know, I would've assumed that a sharp blade would've been seen as something dangerous. Oops.

And those who HAVE the power will always have enemies.This is why most countries overseas love Americans but hate America. They see the gun before they see the person holding it but more importantly never bother to ask themselves, "why has this person traveled thousands of miles to point a gun at me? Could it be something I've done?"

So you're saying that people all over the world should do as Americans do because Americans are rich and America has a lot of military power? The very thing that they've "done" is seen as correct in their eyes. They don't think they're wrong. Put yourself into the minds of these people and maybe you'll start to see that everything isn't as one sided as you make it out to be. There is no good and there is no evil - There's just different.

Ah yes....one hand shakes thy neighbor while the other plots his death. I'd say that pretty much sums it up for me.

To each his own.

[B]Really? Whew! For a minute there I'd forgotten everything I had been taught over the past 20-25 years.

Wrong. What we CAN change is the NUMBER of innocents killed. You have no idea, you really don't and I don't fault your ignorance, on the incredibly HUGE number of terrorist acts that are PREVENTED thanks to the brave men and women who work together with our military to support the intelligence community. Like an airplane crash, you only hear the ones that DIDN'T land on the evening news. You seem to think it's some sort of waste to even TRY and reduce terrorism with our current method.

All we're doing is pushing against them, which is exactly what I believe they need to be terrorists. I'm sure that we get our money's worth out of the FBI, but in order to completely remove this problem WE need to change the way WE do things. The FBI is not a solution to the problem, it reduces the harm caused by the problem and makes us Americans feel more safe.

I'll ask you....what do you think is an HONEST way for Americans to never have to face this hatred again? Do you really think it comes down to us simply changing our policies? Like overnight...the world will become a safer place because Bush adopts some Ghandi-approach to handling madmen?

The problem lies in a lack of knowledge about the way our own minds work. We don't realize it when greed, anger, and stupidity cloud sound judgement because they do just that - they cloud sound judgement. It's a catch-22. The only way you can realize how your mind works is to constantly study it be aware of the decisions you make with it. Teach psychology classes in schools, encourage people to find truth from within themselves and not from outside forces. Your mind IS reality. By finding truth from within yourself you put yourself on a higher plane of existence which is unbelievably empowering. With empowerment comes compassion - compassion for yourself, for other people, and for your environment. This directly affects your quality of life and the quality of life of those around you, because you realize what sort of satisfaction can come from helping others and constantly moving toward a better state of existence. You hold a rhythm of constantly making things better, and you look back on the time you spent your life listening to things that are taught to you and you realize how blinding it was, like a veil that is always over your eyes.

I wrote the following: "You apparently think it is the responsibility of the VICTIMS of terrorism to end it"
and you replied: Yes it is, everyone needs to make sure that other people in the world don't hate us.
I had the motivation to continue the discourse, but your response above to that last paragraph is incredibly insulting and disrespectful to the dead.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm sure the families and friends of the multitude of people that are about to die in the Middle East would appreciate it. September 11th was incredibly tragic. I could not believe my eyes when I saw men jumping from windows to avoid the heat coming from the fires inside of their offices with no other way out. I didn't know anyone that was killed, or anyone that lost a family member or close friend on that day, so I have the luxury of keeping a clear head and not being clouded by emotion when I try to think of ways to solve the problem of terrorism. However, I also know that if I did lose someone close to me, I would need to FIGHT against rage and keep my negative emotions toward terrorists out of my head because I will not allow my mind to become a slave to anger.

Let me end by referencing your opinion above...that it's somehow the VICTIMS of terrorism who are responsible for its ending.
How can children blown to pieces from the spark of a terrorist's bomb mend fences?

They can't. It is not an uncommon thing to happen to die on this planet. I'll die some day, you'll die some day. Children die from lack of food, water, and shelter every day in poor countries but we don't feel it's our problem, so we turn a blind eye. I also very recently had the opportunity of living amongst the poorest in the world and I've connected with these people, so I know what it is to be poor and not have hope for anything better. Can you imagine not having enough food to eat? Can you imagine putting your children to sleep hungry because you don't have any food to give them? Why should we, as Americans, be able to live in so much luxury while these people don't? Because we developed a powerful economy with this vast fertile land with a multitude of natural resources that we stole from native Americans who had been living in environmental harmony here for thousands of years? Should we live in luxury because we bought slaves from European traders who sold guns to tribes in West Africa in exchange for millions of people that were taken from their HOMES, homes that their ancestors had been living in for an eternity, away from their loved ones? I've been inside these prisons. I've seen the deep scratches on the walls from prisoners who were trying to do everything in their power to get out. Although I'm not a slave owner and neither is anyone else here, we need to be aware of the fact that the conditions we live in today are a direct result of past events in history. You and I, as owners of $32,000 sports cars, live extravagant lives compared to A VAST MAJORITY of others in the world. Maybe THAT has a small influence on their attitude toward us? Maybe some of them are fighting back against THAT REALITY the only way they know how. People are aware of how much we consume. We don't just consume from within our borders either, we consume from EVERYWHERE. I am in no way validating the attack against the U.S., I'm only trying to explain how cause and effect is everything.

There is a difference between a Ghanaian and a Saudi Arabian Islamic extremist. Ghanaians love America. Ghanaians are wonderfully happy people and you can see it when they all greet you on the street happily and welcome you as their brother or sister. They will never fail to smile throughout the entire day. The anger that exists in the mind of an Islamic extremist does not exist in the mind of a Ghanaian, and therefore it is a peaceful country. Ghanaians are obviously not anywhere near as involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict as Islamic extremists are, but the heart of the difference lies in their ATTITUDE. The hatred that exists in various places in the Middle East has been built up for generations. Ghanaians are well aware of how many Africans were taken from their country and sold like cattle to American land owners hundreds of years ago, but they don't hold it against us. They are a peaceful people and choose to live happily as proud Ghanaians and will continue to strive to make the situation better for themselves and others.

People will always live in different economic conditions, and people will always have varying amounts of power. The real difference lies in the way their minds function.

 

Lee-

When did you get back from Africa? Is there a thread on your trip?

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Raptor
[B]Lee-

When did you get back from Africa?

 

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee355
Do you have the power to question the very belief that you've grown up with and have been taught since day one? Have you ever asked yourself "Why am I a Christian? Why do I believe in the existence of a supernatural being?" I'm guessing not, because your mind has been exposed to so much of it that it is and always has been an important part of your character. There are a lot of unexplained phenomena that have occured on this planet and in this universe that science has no evidence to explain. The creation of our planet, the birth of our universe, evolution... People have a hard time leaving things unexplained and it's a lot easier for them to just put a label on something. God made Earth. God made the universe. God created 2 white humans that reproduced and eventually spawned into 6 billion people. Some people believe these things but I don't.

Yes, I do have the power to question the beliefs I have. Especially when younger, I questioned the beliefs my parents (and friends and such) held. Actually, I didn't. I questioned some of those that HELD those beliefs, that believed them, because I found faults in them. I figured that if religion was so perfect, the people should also be perfect. Naturally, this is not true and I learned to look past the people and see the good that a belief in God gave them (and has now given me). So yes, I've asked myself plenty of times all the questions you mention.

You ask why I believe in a supernatural being. There are many reasons, but I'll give just one (it's the most recent). My wife is pregnant with our first baby, so naturally we've been learning a LOT about how the baby develops, etc, etc... What a miracle (and I don't use that word lightly) it is to see how a tiny thing develops into a human being. To believe that such a thing occurred by chance, without divine guidance and direction, is (in my mind) completely ludicrous. The tiny intricacies of a baby alone convince me that there is a God. I actually discussed other things in another thread quite some months ago, but if you want more, I can give you more (in PM, as this is getting off topic).

Quote:

You're speaking from behind a mask of Christianity right now and don't even realize it. I have Christian friends and family and I've been to church plenty of times. I don't believe Christians are free thinkers, and free thinking is key to finding the real truth behind everything. Do you believe everything that is written in the bible? Do you believe everything your pastor tells you? Why?

What you believe is your own choice. However, I could just as easily say that you are speaking from a mask of ignorance, having never experienced true Christianity or Christians. Who is to say?

Look at it this way. If you ate a bad apple, would you never try another apple again? Say you bought a bag of bad apples - does that mean that all apples are rotten? See, where you get one bad apple, you tend to get lots. To make the parallel perfectly clear, where you get one type of professing Christian, you tend to get a lot like him/her. So, you generally have a lot of the same thing in a certain place, but it doesn't mean that all are like that everywhere.

That said, what do you define as a "free thinker"? Someone who has no absolute? My perception is that you feel that the Bible limits Christians and so they are not free thinkers. If so, so be it, because I could see how it's true - it's not that we don't THINK freely, it's that we don't often BELIEVE the way others do. Having a different viewpoint does not make us less of "free thinkers". I would venture a guess and say that because we have so many of our views/beliefs already laid out in the Bible, you feel that makes us less than free thinkers. Again, this could be seen as true and I see your point. If someone asked me about a topic, the basis for my answer would most often be based on what I believe in scripture. Is that any different than you answering based on what you've read/learned? Just because my beliefs are written down, does that make them any less valid than yours, or more limiting? I'm sure yours are written down places, too, just not necessarily all in one volume or book.

Yes, I believe everything that is in the Bible. No, I don't believe everything my pastor tells me - if it doesn't line up with the Bible, I wouldn't believe it. The Bible is my ultimate guide, not my pastor.

Quote:

That's fine, again I am not here to disprove the existence of a supernatural being, but if you don't mind me asking, what have you seen him do?

See above.



I think you have a perception that Christians believe that a person is either good (PERIOD) or bad (PERIOD). This is quite far from the truth. Any Christian should be able to tell you that we all have bad in us, since we're born in an imperfect world and body.; "Born in sin, shaped in iniquity, come into the world speaking lies", to paraphrase scripture. We don't say PEOPLE are necessarily bad or good (though oftimes it is quite evident), but rather we say ACTIONS are good or bad.



I believe people are born a certain way, yes. However, no, I don't think they all remain that way forever. I believe that they can change.

As far as a completely isolated person, if they are braindead and without senses, I have no idea if they have thoughts in their head or not. Ask a scientist or doctor that knows, for I surely don't.



Partially, yes. However, the mind can override senses and allow YOU to define how you react to inputs. As you said yourself, the BRAIN makes the decisions. Also, I believe in a spiritual sense (the Holy Spirit) that can override everything in the body, allow us to ignore or overcome physical senses in order to grow and mature positively.



Without past experience, you are right, you wouldn't necessarily know what is right or wrong. As I said, with the plethora of moral teachings we inherently absorb each day, there is no way someone (aside from being shut up in a room without contact with the rest of the world) can help but know IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER the basic "right" or "wrong" in actions.

Every thought is a result of any of your five senses? What about dreams? What about imagination? Are these also always result of five senses? I don't think so. If imagination is governed by the five senses, we'd never be able to go beyond what we currently have.

Quote:

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, as a realist I also tend to believe that the world is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't analyze why we are in this state and how we might be able to possibly get ourselves out of it. I myself have analyzed this situation down to the point that as long as we have a high level of Greed, Anger, and Stupidity in the characters of people with any sort of power, we will have problems. Christianity pays no attention to greed, anger, and stupidity, and neither does Islam. I'm not saying these two religions are WRONG, they're just different from my own beliefs. I firmly believe that the situation won't get any better unless we all change something WITHIN US. The reason this situation is so grim at the present time is that the amount of power that a man can have has gotten out of hand. One man now has the power to kill millions.

Oh, by all means, analyze away, try and fix it all. I have no problem with that and I concur - just because it's toast doesn't mean we should let it all go to the dogs (so to speak). I certainly didn't mean that - I only know that it's too far gone to fix.

How do you get rid of stupidity? For that matter, how about greed? Where is the line drawn between self-betterment and greed? How do you get rid of anger? These things are impossible to take out of most people.

Your own statement ruins your chances of world peace. ONE MAN has the power to kill millions - this it true today and it'll be true forever. All it takes is one person (male or female) that isn't in the same frame of mind as all of the "compassionate" people, and the plan is ruined.

On one thing we agree - we can't improve things unless we change something within us. On this I can wholeheartedly concur. There, we aren't so different after all. If this is your bottom line in your argument, I agree completely - I guess we only differ on how to implement that change.



Again, I agree - just because we screwed up the world permanently doesn't mean we should let things slide. As a Christian, I will always stand for what I believe is right and stand against that which I believe is wrong in this world. I'll do my part not to make things worse. Worth fighting for? Yes, I think so too - I'm just keeping myself realistic as to what I can expect in terms of changes...



Nope, I'm saying that while the situation may affect me personally, I'm not worried about it. My hope and faith (gotta love it ) lie elsewhere. I'll do what I can, but I'm not worried about it and I'm trusting in a better place beyond this world.

Just for clarification, I didn't say you were ignorant - I said you were speaking out of ignorance. There is a difference. I certainly didn't mean to offend you. Naive? Yes, I did say that but I can't help but think it true. Certainly not a personal attack (and I'm sorry if it appeared to be one).

No, I wasn't offended by your comments, just a bit dismayed that you spoke as you did without a proper grasp of Christianity. The blame may not be yours (and I'm not trying to assign blame), but again, I have to say that you spoke out of ignorance. I guess my problem is more with you making definitive comments without the personal commitment that I (and others) have, along with the experiences we have had that prove you can be/are wrong in what you said.

Believe me, I didn't get emotional - I've been called stoic, mainly because of my Germanic background (you know the type - blondhaired, steel-blue eyes, calm, impassive at times, though I have been known to cry a time or two ). I was horrified when 9/11 occurred, for sure, but I'm just as horrified at the millions that Americans kill through abortion each year (one baby every 24 seconds...or was it 26 seconds? One of the two - I heard it on the radio this morning). Which is more blatant? Not trying to turn the conversation down another alley, but it's just some food for thought.

Anger is not only a result of injustice or a challenged ego. Anger can be a result of ignorance by another party (perhaps that's a type of injustice) or as a result of a moral boundary being crossed. It can be because of pain or suffering (stubbing a toe, for instance). It can be caused by a hateful remark (arguably an injustice, though not definitively), death, etc, etc... Hundreds of reasons, I'm sure.

Good reply, though - keep it coming! We may not agree on everything, but if nothing else we can hopefully enlighten the other person in some way and, if all else fails, agree to disagree on everything else.

 

So many comments from your last I could respond to but time doesn't afford me the luxury of continuing the discourse, however I do have a few seconds to respond to the above boldfaced thoughts you wrote earlier.
After all these years of wondering why the rest of the world hates America, you've finally cleared it all up for us. Americans are victims of terrorism in small part, because of our $32,000 sportscars!!!!!!
So....in other words, if we became part of the have nots, all anger directed toward us would cease to exist? If American women and men decided to create children they could not feed, eliminate the millions of dollars in world aid and research and went back to the pre-Model T days when we all either rode horses or walked to work all our problems would be solved and everyone who doesn't have a pot to piss in will love us?

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ
[B]

So many comments from your last I could respond to but time doesn't afford me the luxury of continuing the discourse, however I do have a few seconds to respond to the above boldfaced thoughts you wrote earlier.
After all these years of wondering why the rest of the world hates America, you've finally cleared it all up for us.

 

Initially, I have to say that it seems clear that the administration is dead set on a war w/ Iraq and that is so almost no matter what happens or does not happen on the inspection front or the diplomatic front. I'd bet that we're going to attack.

Imagine, if you will, what the attitude of the Iraqi government must be if they think as I do. What is the point of their negotiating w/ us in good faith (not that I'd ever grant that likelihood anyway)?

While I would LOVE to just push a button and have the top 90% of both the N. Korean and Iraqi governments just go poof, I don't seem to be able to find my button.

In the absence of my button, I don't want us to go to war against either country, unless and until we are attacked in some significant fashion.

As between the two, I think that N. Korea is far more dangerous and it is hard for me to understand why this administration seems so dead set on an Iraqi war.

OK, so Korea has no oil, but Iraq seemingly can't hit us or our REAL allies w/ chemical or biological weapons today or nukes in the very near future.

It seems pretty clear that if they are given just a few years that the Koreans will be able to hit our west coast w/ nukes, and it is just possible that they can do so already. Without doubt, they are already armed to the teeth w/ chemical and biological warheads for their existing delivery systems. If a war should develop w/ them today, the people of S. Korea and Japan could look for vast casualties. No country on earth has any real defense against a determined biological attack and that includes our own nation.

I guess that the biggest problem that I have w/ the Iraq situation is that I don't think that we have a viable solution for the aftermath. It is the Afghan situation all over again, only much worse. I sure as hell don't want our guys in harm's way for some indefinite time while we occupy the country.

Sure wish that I had some idea of what should be done.