I heard just a bit ago that Pakistan, being the source for much of what Afghanistan relies on...things like food and fuel and other necessities...is prepared to withdraw all support of its neighbor to the northwest if they don't comply with the demands that are placed upon it - like releasing bin Laden, etc...

Encouraging...

 

Yes, Pakistan has basically said to us what ever you want we will comply! This includes free fly zone over their airspace etc. OBL needs to learn to bend over backwards...................................so he can KISS HIS ASS GOOD BYE!

 

Yea, I saw the leader, at least I think that's who it was (could have been a spokesperson) make the announcement. She was visibly shaken and seemed to be genuine. I'm very happy to have their cooperation in this...

Another main point of the story was just how dependent Afghanistan is on Pakistan for day to day things. If they cut that stuff off, that would make like even more difficult in Afghanistan.

On the other hand, it could be that Pakistan is afraid of being bombed (as 2x6 puts it) from the 7th to the 2nd century and this could be a CYA move on their part...but I hope (and doubt) that this is the case...

 

This will be interesting.

I worked in Pakistan for 2 years and know that what the person in charge says is not necesarily what government does.

The ISI (Intelligence Service) pretty much is the one who really controls the country. If they are not supporters to the agreement it is not going to happen.

 

I am quite sure that this is a CYA move. Pakistan took a long time to come out in support of the USA and against terrorism, I am sure that a great deal of arm twisting and threatening went on before they issued this statement of support .... IMHO

 

I don't think the US should count on any support from Pakistan at the moment of truth. The Taliban was installed in Afghanistan by Pakistan. The Afghani people are basically hostage to the Taliban. Pakistan operates terrorist groups against India in both India and Kashmir. Pakistan also supports both the Taliban and bin Laden.

On Afghanistan's western border is Iran, which has mobillized 70,000 troops to guard that border since the Taliban slaughtered 9 Iranian diplomats on August 8, 1998, when the Taliban overran Mazar-e-Sharif, an opposition stronghold in northern Afghanistan.

Ironically, Iran might be a better ally (even though powerful factions in Iran are exuberant supporters of international fundamentalist Muslim terrorism) than Pakistan.

Pakistan is the only Moslem state with both a profound affection for terrorists and nuclear devices. I think Pakistan should be on our shit list instead of friend list. I also think Pakistan will cause us great grief if we actually rely on them for anything especially security for US theater forces.

This war is going to be extremely messy. The war which is being waged against us is a Holy War, Jihad. It is supported by fundamentalists all over the Muslim world, irrespective of national boundaries.

Bush thinks he is fighting the first war of the 21st century. He is wrong. We have been engaged in a continuation of a war from the 10th century. It's going to be very messy.

 

to be honest, I heard all kinds of rhetoric like this during the gulf war... How it would last forever.. A holy war of all time. Threats of WW3... Sounds pretty much the same here.

 

2x6spds - On the vast majority of your posts I feel that you present very sensible and balanced views - but here I think your facts are just plain wrong. The situation your refer to is much more complex than you might think and needs more attention to detail than your message suggests.

Before anything else - let me say that my hear grieves for those who suffered due to the tragic events of Sep 11th. I remember them in my prayers and hope that God provides closure and peace to the families/friends left behind.

Now my attempt to clarify your misunderstandings:

First of all I am a Pakistani/Afghani American and I grew up in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan as a kid. My immediate family was killed by invading Soviet forces in 1986 and I then grew up with distant relatives in Pakistan.

Most people do NOT realize how very terrible that conflict was and how many HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people died and MILLIONS suffered in that confilct.

From day one the entire country of Pakistan was committed to supporting Afghanistan against the Soviets. It is very easy to claim that Pakistan should be on the "shit" list. You are entitled to your opinion but PLEASE know the facts because for some of us this is a very sensitive and heartfelt topic.

Pakistan opened its doors to us (Afghani refugees) when no one else in the world wanted us. Afghanis flooded into Pakistan by the millions and NOT once did the government in Pakistan not try to assist us and provide for us to the best of their abilities.

Today the nation of Paksitan has changed considerably since when I left it. There is a lot more Islamic fundamentalism there than before. But you have to understand why this has happened. Before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, religous fundamentalism was almost non existent. During the soviet- afghan war, religous extremism and sentiment was VERY GREATLY exploited both by the U.S. which was providing training and weapons to Afghani fighters and by the Pakistani governement that was doing the same. I think Americans NEED to realize that the religous extremism found in Pakistan/Afghanistan has its roots in that conflict. It was initially engineered as a rallying banner to get Afghanis to fight the Soviets with zeal and vigor. The statements used to be. " Look at those infidel athiests who are invading your homeland - defend your religion against this onslaught".

This religous fundamentalism took hold and gained tremendous support. Multiple factions were armed and trained independently both with U.S. and Pakistani assistance. It is a little known FACT that Osama bin Laden was also trained by U.S. personnel in just such a camp set up to train freedom fighters to fight the Soviets. After the Russians, pulled out, all of these violent militant Afghani groups turned against each other and my native country was plunged into civil war for more than a decade.

The present government of Pakistan is NOT a religous fundamentalist government. Is is a desperate government trying to hold the tide against an overwhelming swamp of religous fundamentalism that is sweeping the country. After the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the U.S. rapidly lost interest in the area and did nothing to stem the rise of Islamic fundamentalism that it itself had helped engineer in the area.

I am NOT blaming the U.S. - I am just trying to put things into perspective here. The people of Afghanistan and Pakistan are the true VICTIMS of this whole confilct. They have suffered for 2 whole decades now. First at the hands of the Soviets, then a bloody civil war and now these stupid criminal terrorist groups. If the U.S. goes aheads and bombs Afghanistan - who do you think will suffer. Innocent civilians, families who NEVER wanted anything to do with this conflict. The terrorists who perpertrated this act are probably in hiding already and wholescale warfare is NOT the way to dig them out. Only the Afghani people will suffer. The Afghani people are already suffering under the stifling oppressive rule of the Taliban. They do not need more misery..

I LOVE this great nation of America. Americans should REALIZE and understand what a great blessing it is to have the things you take for GRANTED here. Liberty. justice, and the safety of your life and property. I am one of the VERY lucky few who was able to come and be accepted with open arms in this great country and I feel PROUD to be a member of this society. But PLEASE PLEASE realize that the people of Pakstan and Afghanistan are NOT against you despite whatever the media might try to portray. The people of Afghanistan have been victimes for more than 2 decades now. These terrorist groups are making a mockery of my religion - Islam and using it to brainwash people into violence.

I think the only way this confilct can eventually be won comprehensively is if the U.S. supports whatever liberal non-fundamentalist elements (which includes the current military ruler of Pakistan) in these countrys and help them overcome this evil force of fundamentalism that is sweeping these countries.

Sorry for this disorganized message but my heart bleeds when I think for all who have suffered (including those in NYC and DC).

 

Very valuable post Moneeb.

 

Wow, it's so good to hear another side to the story. Thanks Moneeb for bringing us all a bit closer to reality. We all get carried away by the media with it's black and white view of the world. Whatever sells a newspaper .

It does seem that the US often 'swallows a spider to catch the fly'. And everytime these things come to a head many innocent people suffer. Those in the WTC, and probably many in Afganistan will soon too.

But I have to give the US credit for it's considered reaction to this problem. I realise some will call their retaliation rash, no longer how long they deliberate. But lets face it, the only country that uses accurate smart bombs is the US. They are designed to achieve an objective with minimal colateral damage. It's much easier and cheaper to fly a hijacked 767 into a building.

And if the people of Afghanistan really want to minimise colateral damage, just point out bin Laden.

A lot more innocent people will die before the guilty party is brought to justice. It's a shame, but it has to happen.