Moneeb thanks for the very excellent post. You know what is going on! Most Americans do not have a clue.

I keep hearing people say that we need to bomb the f$ck out of Afghanistan. WE CAN NOT DO THAT! If we turn this into an all out war; that war will not end. We can not go to Afghanistan and kill innocent civilians because then we will have the Islamic religion on our backs. It will be a Islamic holy war, and there will be no peace.

We need to have a precise and surgical strike with small military special forces to destroy the Taliban. Any other kind of warfare will be devastating, and there will be no peace. We need to be very careful to not create this a war against the Islams... once we do that, it will be hopeless.

If this becomes a holy war we will see many many more "attacks on America" and it will be very ugly. I say if we can't prevent this from becoming a holy war by destroying the Taliban and only the Taliban, then we should not go to war, we should stop with 5000 dead. This situation is very complex, and most people don't seem to understand that.

This has become an excellent thread, and I am sending my non-S2000 friends that tell me the solution is to carpet bomb Afghanistan to this thread for some very valuable information.

 

We should stop with 5000 dead??? What about the next attack upon the West? How many dead will we count then?
The Taliban need to be brought to justice, along with other terrorist groups. Any nation which harbours terrorists, finances, supports, and otherwise encourages their activities must be seen to be equally culpable by all nations or there is no hope of combating this evil. We should bow down to the wishes of a group of 3rd. world countries at the first threat of a 'Holy War'??
This is the 21st century folks. Time for them to seriously think about moving on from the Dark Ages?? Let's not be too ready to capitulate in the face of a howl of religious hysteria.

 

The headline in today's paper said that Pakistan is asking for Bin Laden to be turned over.

 

PAKISTAN WILL FAILED like they did a few years back.

 

IMO if we are not careful and this becomes a Islamic holy war, the number of innocent dead people will be more than you can count. It will be very ugly.

I am not against going to war... read my first post, I am strongly suggesting though that we keep it as covert as possible, and be very careful.

I am merely suggesting that we need to be very cautious.

 

I understand your concern John David, but offer this thought to you - there is nothing the US can do to stop this war except to win it. What accommodation would be required to abate the Fatwah of Jihad - the Bill of Holy War? We would have to stop being American - stop assaulting the sensibilities of the righteous with moving images of half naked blond women in our movies, no more criticism of slavery in Muslim countries, no criticism of cliterectomies, no more evangelizing by your inferior Christian faith, no more support for "moderate" illegitimate middle eastern nations like Egypt, no more support for even immoderate middle eastern nations like Saudi Arabia, no more sanctions against Iraq, no more support for Israel, no independent US foreign policy, no more offensive democracy -

That's the problem with Holy Wars, they speak to a fundamental disagreement, an absolute intolerance of another way of life, a Holy Mission by the Holy Warriors to impose on others their absolute beliefs and codes of conduct.

We do not have a choice in this war - because we are not the ones who made war. The ugly war which has been launched against us is a Holy War, a war in which the smashing of jumbo jets into civilian buildings (and the Pentagon) is justified because there can be no civilians in a Holy War. This is a war in which the Holy Warriors are justified to poison our reservoirs, release Vx or plagues into our land. Therefore, this is a war which must be won because there is no suing for peace, there is no accommodation which will satisify the fanatic.

Just my two Riyals

 

Well, Pakistan failed in trying to have the Taliban turn Bin Laden over as expected.

I think it might be a good time to give international travel a miss for a while.

 

Excellent, concise point.

It is a war between religious absolutism and Western classic liberalism. They will always have the edge of unity and strength of their beliefs; we will always have the weakness of internal dissention and doubt.

 

Sunchild - in my previous post I never intended to imply this. The Taliban militia was never supported or funded or armed by the U.S. and does not owe its immediate existence to the U.S. Rather there is no doubt that the Taliban were empowered by Pakistan in an attempt to counteract Ahmed Shah Masood who had turned decidedly anti Pakistan in his sentiments. This attempt by Pakistan has proven disastrous and blown up in Pakistan's face. I never intended to imply U.S. support for the Taliban.



Sunchild - how can you be so confident when you say this? Look at your statement - look how STRONG it is. You say there is NO possible way to support this assertion. Are you sure?? I remember as a child our village used to be bombarded with aerially dropped fliers which clearly said, "Fight off the athiest infidels - unite yourselves in jihad (holy war)". I remember people from my village relating stories of people who were rounded up from refugee camps in Pakistan and taken to camps where apparently they were trained in how to use firearms and explosives. True mostly they reported that these camps were manned by the Pakistan army but many different people reported seeing "Amreeki" supervisors who would oversee such sessions. Did I ever see such a camp myself - NO, I was just a kid. Did anyone from my immediate family ever attend? NO, my father ran a small shop in the village and wanted only to survive with no involvement in any of the violence - until he was rounded up as a suspected mujahideen that is. So Sunchild I dont have any direct evidence that the U.S. exploited religous vigor to get Afghanis to fight the Soviets. But I have a lot of indirect evidence that makes me firmly believe that. I mean absolutely NO personal insult to you but if you have any evidence that refutes my assumption - please let me know. Maybe I am wrong.

Sunchild you also say, that the people in that region have a "hard on" for religous fundamentalism. And that there must be a fundamental flaw in my culture to make my people susceptible to this. Well all I can say in response is that you are entitled to your opinion. That is the beauty of this country. But let me just ask you and try to draw a parallel. Hitler held a highly educated German nation hostage to the ideals of National Socialism. Is there is a fundamental flaw in German culture you see today? Are the people of Germany evil? Were Nazi ideals any less evil than the ideals of these terrorist groups? I am simply trying to say that people who have seen great suffering can be brainwashed and manipulated by perverted criminal minds in power. Please acknowledge that as the source of this misunderstanding. Please do not think of it is as a flaw either in my culture or religion, both of which are very dear to me and others and DO NOT advocate violence or intolerance towards anyone.

I think 2x6pd is absolutely correct - this is a war that the U.S. CANNOT back down from. I do not feel that I am exagerrating when I say that the evil of the intolerant perversion of Islam that these fundamentalists ascribe to is no less evil and barbaric than the Nazi philosophies of World War 2. l however believe that the battle against this evil must come from within these nations. The U.S. should not involve itself directly. It should openly support whatever non-fundamentalist elements remain within these countries and help them defeat these terrible people.

Surgical strikes, air raids, U.S. troops - in my opinion, none of these will have any consequences. These will only give these people more ammunition to use for brainwashing people against the United States. These people MUST be brought down from within. That is the only way I see a lasting solution.

 

Moneeb, you have a beautiful mind and heart.

Ideally, you are correct when you say that the correction should be self generated. I do not believe that there is sufficient support in what we euphemistically refer to as the middle east for such a triumph of moderation.

The Jewish religion speaks of and prays for the "righteous of all nations."

I suppose that it is time for those who reject the radical perversion of Islam to stand up and make their own war on those who embrace the murderous doctrines which manifest themselves in murder and the celebration of murder.

I don't think it will happen. So many religious schools teach the children to hate Americans, Jews, Hindus, etc.; teach a lesson which festers throughout the years of these peoples' lives, mediates how they see and understand the world.

How does a person stand away and above from their culture? It can happen, but on a mass basis it is a very rare cultural event. It requires a sudden transformation of belief systems. Unlikely. You're talking about a miracle.

Well, I hope for this miracle, but what I expect is war, and many more terrorist outrages which will horrify the gentle of heart, the decent of spirit, outrages which will take thousands, tens of thousands, hudreds of thousands of innocent lives.

This is a war which must be won even though we don't know how it will even be fought.