To BBK Or Not To BBK
02-18-2020, 04:29 PM
#11
TL;DR - if you're fast and track your car regularly, then a BBK is absolutely worth it. You can go with one of the cheaper options too - Stoptech ST40 kit for ~$1500 or the Sake Bomb Wilwood kit for $1250 or so.
I posted this before, but here's my "brake" down of cost effectiveness with the stoptech ST40 kit (purchased at $1500).
I tracked the car stock on street tires (RS3/RE-11a) for two years with 12 track days a year. Pads were XP10/XP8 or DTC70 with RBF600. Car had 2.5" brake ducts. Pads and rotors would not last longer than 4 track days (sometimes only 3). Rotors would crack and pads would be down to backing plates.
A set of front pads on OEM calipers = $200
Set of front rotors = $100
Total cost = $300.
Replacing pads/rotors every 3-4 track days with 12 track days a year = $900-$1200 per year. not to mention, lost track time if you're doing a track side replacement due to a cracked rotor, which is expensive at ~$130 to $200 for a track day.
My Stoptech ST40 kit cost $1500. DTC70 pads cost $240, or i can step down and use a less aggressive pad HC800+ which costs $170 on the ST40 caliper.
So far I have 10 track days on on the HC800+ pads and am still on the original rotors. They have a ton of life left.
Other users have reported 20-25 track days before replacing rotors.
Assuming 24 track days and replacements every 3.5 track days,
that equals 6.8 replacements, which is ~7 replacements if you were on stock rotors.
7*300 = $2100 over two years (OEM setup)
BBK
-$1500 initial cost
-$180 pads.
-Rotor ring replacement = $500
-another set of pads = $180
Total = $2300
That's over two years. Keep in mind that your BBK has residual value and that you can easily sell that BBK for $1000 if you part the car out. That brings that cost down to $1300. No one is looking to buy used OEM calipers and rotors...
If you drive the car and track for longer than two years, it pays for itself and continues to decrease your cost of tracking.
That doesn't even go into the benefits of the actual performance difference, which is pedal feel/consistency over a 25 minute session, and no brake fade at all.
The s2000 is under-braked for track use. For street use, just buy better pads, lines, and fluid - not a problem. For serious track use, once you start getting up to speed, a BBK is extremely beneficial and under-rated. I actually bought a BBK before coilovers - financially, they made sense based on how often I was going to track and will be going to track.
I calculate 4 year use at 12 track days a year as this.
OEM calipers and rotors
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Replace every 3.5 days = 13.7 replacements
-13.7*300 = $4110
BBK
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Purchase BBK and track pads = $1680
-Replace rings and pads every 24 track days = 2 replacements
-2*(500+180) = $1360
-Total = $1360 + $1680 = $3040
-Sell BBK when done with car = -$1000
-New Total = $2040
Difference of OEM vs BBK over 4 years = $4110 - $2040 = $2070
So, yes, a BBK will pay for itself and then some if you actually track the car and are driving the car fast enough.
I posted this before, but here's my "brake" down of cost effectiveness with the stoptech ST40 kit (purchased at $1500).
I tracked the car stock on street tires (RS3/RE-11a) for two years with 12 track days a year. Pads were XP10/XP8 or DTC70 with RBF600. Car had 2.5" brake ducts. Pads and rotors would not last longer than 4 track days (sometimes only 3). Rotors would crack and pads would be down to backing plates.
A set of front pads on OEM calipers = $200
Set of front rotors = $100
Total cost = $300.
Replacing pads/rotors every 3-4 track days with 12 track days a year = $900-$1200 per year. not to mention, lost track time if you're doing a track side replacement due to a cracked rotor, which is expensive at ~$130 to $200 for a track day.
My Stoptech ST40 kit cost $1500. DTC70 pads cost $240, or i can step down and use a less aggressive pad HC800+ which costs $170 on the ST40 caliper.
So far I have 10 track days on on the HC800+ pads and am still on the original rotors. They have a ton of life left.
Other users have reported 20-25 track days before replacing rotors.
Assuming 24 track days and replacements every 3.5 track days,
that equals 6.8 replacements, which is ~7 replacements if you were on stock rotors.
7*300 = $2100 over two years (OEM setup)
BBK
-$1500 initial cost
-$180 pads.
-Rotor ring replacement = $500
-another set of pads = $180
Total = $2300
That's over two years. Keep in mind that your BBK has residual value and that you can easily sell that BBK for $1000 if you part the car out. That brings that cost down to $1300. No one is looking to buy used OEM calipers and rotors...
If you drive the car and track for longer than two years, it pays for itself and continues to decrease your cost of tracking.
That doesn't even go into the benefits of the actual performance difference, which is pedal feel/consistency over a 25 minute session, and no brake fade at all.
The s2000 is under-braked for track use. For street use, just buy better pads, lines, and fluid - not a problem. For serious track use, once you start getting up to speed, a BBK is extremely beneficial and under-rated. I actually bought a BBK before coilovers - financially, they made sense based on how often I was going to track and will be going to track.
I calculate 4 year use at 12 track days a year as this.
OEM calipers and rotors
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Replace every 3.5 days = 13.7 replacements
-13.7*300 = $4110
BBK
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Purchase BBK and track pads = $1680
-Replace rings and pads every 24 track days = 2 replacements
-2*(500+180) = $1360
-Total = $1360 + $1680 = $3040
-Sell BBK when done with car = -$1000
-New Total = $2040
Difference of OEM vs BBK over 4 years = $4110 - $2040 = $2070
So, yes, a BBK will pay for itself and then some if you actually track the car and are driving the car fast enough.
The following 3 users liked this post by Bullwings:
02-18-2020, 04:51 PM
#12
It really comes down to the value of your time (spent replacing rotors) and the value of a wasted track day (if you crack your rotors).. If you can afford it then a front bbk is worth it, your pads will last A LOT longer also
another thing to consider is you'll probably need different wheels
another thing to consider is you'll probably need different wheels
02-18-2020, 04:55 PM
#13
TL;DR - if you're fast and track your car regularly, then a BBK is absolutely worth it. You can go with one of the cheaper options too - Stoptech ST40 kit for ~$1500 or the Sake Bomb Wilwood kit for $1250 or so.
I posted this before, but here's my "brake" down of cost effectiveness with the stoptech ST40 kit (purchased at $1500).
I tracked the car stock on street tires (RS3/RE-11a) for two years with 12 track days a year. Pads were XP10/XP8 or DTC70 with RBF600. Car had 2.5" brake ducts. Pads and rotors would not last longer than 4 track days (sometimes only 3). Rotors would crack and pads would be down to backing plates.
A set of front pads on OEM calipers = $200
Set of front rotors = $100
Total cost = $300.
Replacing pads/rotors every 3-4 track days with 12 track days a year = $900-$1200 per year. not to mention, lost track time if you're doing a track side replacement due to a cracked rotor, which is expensive at ~$130 to $200 for a track day.
My Stoptech ST40 kit cost $1500. DTC70 pads cost $240, or i can step down and use a less aggressive pad HC800+ which costs $170 on the ST40 caliper.
So far I have 10 track days on on the HC800+ pads and am still on the original rotors. They have a ton of life left.
Other users have reported 20-25 track days before replacing rotors.
Assuming 24 track days and replacements every 3.5 track days,
that equals 6.8 replacements, which is ~7 replacements if you were on stock rotors.
7*300 = $2100 over two years (OEM setup)
BBK
-$1500 initial cost
-$180 pads.
-Rotor ring replacement = $500
-another set of pads = $180
Total = $2300
That's over two years. Keep in mind that your BBK has residual value and that you can easily sell that BBK for $1000 if you part the car out. That brings that cost down to $1300. No one is looking to buy used OEM calipers and rotors...
If you drive the car and track for longer than two years, it pays for itself and continues to decrease your cost of tracking.
That doesn't even go into the benefits of the actual performance difference, which is pedal feel/consistency over a 25 minute session, and no brake fade at all.
The s2000 is under-braked for track use. For street use, just buy better pads, lines, and fluid - not a problem. For serious track use, once you start getting up to speed, a BBK is extremely beneficial and under-rated. I actually bought a BBK before coilovers - financially, they made sense based on how often I was going to track and will be going to track.
I calculate 4 year use at 12 track days a year as this.
OEM calipers and rotors
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Replace every 3.5 days = 13.7 replacements
-13.7*300 = $4110
BBK
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Purchase BBK and track pads = $1680
-Replace rings and pads every 24 track days = 2 replacements
-2*(500+180) = $1360
-Total = $1360 + $1680 = $3040
-Sell BBK when done with car = -$1000
-New Total = $2040
Difference of OEM vs BBK over 4 years = $4110 - $2040 = $2070
So, yes, a BBK will pay for itself and then some if you actually track the car and are driving the car fast enough.
I posted this before, but here's my "brake" down of cost effectiveness with the stoptech ST40 kit (purchased at $1500).
I tracked the car stock on street tires (RS3/RE-11a) for two years with 12 track days a year. Pads were XP10/XP8 or DTC70 with RBF600. Car had 2.5" brake ducts. Pads and rotors would not last longer than 4 track days (sometimes only 3). Rotors would crack and pads would be down to backing plates.
A set of front pads on OEM calipers = $200
Set of front rotors = $100
Total cost = $300.
Replacing pads/rotors every 3-4 track days with 12 track days a year = $900-$1200 per year. not to mention, lost track time if you're doing a track side replacement due to a cracked rotor, which is expensive at ~$130 to $200 for a track day.
My Stoptech ST40 kit cost $1500. DTC70 pads cost $240, or i can step down and use a less aggressive pad HC800+ which costs $170 on the ST40 caliper.
So far I have 10 track days on on the HC800+ pads and am still on the original rotors. They have a ton of life left.
Other users have reported 20-25 track days before replacing rotors.
Assuming 24 track days and replacements every 3.5 track days,
that equals 6.8 replacements, which is ~7 replacements if you were on stock rotors.
7*300 = $2100 over two years (OEM setup)
BBK
-$1500 initial cost
-$180 pads.
-Rotor ring replacement = $500
-another set of pads = $180
Total = $2300
That's over two years. Keep in mind that your BBK has residual value and that you can easily sell that BBK for $1000 if you part the car out. That brings that cost down to $1300. No one is looking to buy used OEM calipers and rotors...
If you drive the car and track for longer than two years, it pays for itself and continues to decrease your cost of tracking.
That doesn't even go into the benefits of the actual performance difference, which is pedal feel/consistency over a 25 minute session, and no brake fade at all.
The s2000 is under-braked for track use. For street use, just buy better pads, lines, and fluid - not a problem. For serious track use, once you start getting up to speed, a BBK is extremely beneficial and under-rated. I actually bought a BBK before coilovers - financially, they made sense based on how often I was going to track and will be going to track.
I calculate 4 year use at 12 track days a year as this.
OEM calipers and rotors
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Replace every 3.5 days = 13.7 replacements
-13.7*300 = $4110
BBK
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Purchase BBK and track pads = $1680
-Replace rings and pads every 24 track days = 2 replacements
-2*(500+180) = $1360
-Total = $1360 + $1680 = $3040
-Sell BBK when done with car = -$1000
-New Total = $2040
Difference of OEM vs BBK over 4 years = $4110 - $2040 = $2070
So, yes, a BBK will pay for itself and then some if you actually track the car and are driving the car fast enough.
Time to start saving my shekels. Replacing pads and rotors every 3 or so days definitely sounds terrible given that I do at least 4 days a month and often 6-7. I’m fortunate enough to have free track time by virtue of my old man’s membership at Apex Motor Club in Arizona so we go pretty frequently. Sounds like BBK is definitely going to be worth it.
02-20-2020, 05:00 PM
#14
Track days ftw
Just my .02,
I jave been an amateur track enthusiest for 3 years now, with a couple more at autox. Ive been running hawk dtc 60 on track with the cheapest Centric rotors on rock auto, $25ech plus shipping. Thats $50 a set! I am on my 2md set the first set warped pretty good. I have not cracked one yet. Key is to use your cool down laps. That being said I just ordered my Stoptech kit. The sliding oem calipers were never meant for hard track days at 20+min with race pads. The sliders freeze up from boiling the slide pin grease. Id say i have 6-8 or so track days (3 or 4 weekends) on my set of hawk dtc 60. And id say theyre too low to use. Depending on how frequent you track it amd how hard you push the brakes depends if you should go for a BBK
I jave been an amateur track enthusiest for 3 years now, with a couple more at autox. Ive been running hawk dtc 60 on track with the cheapest Centric rotors on rock auto, $25ech plus shipping. Thats $50 a set! I am on my 2md set the first set warped pretty good. I have not cracked one yet. Key is to use your cool down laps. That being said I just ordered my Stoptech kit. The sliding oem calipers were never meant for hard track days at 20+min with race pads. The sliders freeze up from boiling the slide pin grease. Id say i have 6-8 or so track days (3 or 4 weekends) on my set of hawk dtc 60. And id say theyre too low to use. Depending on how frequent you track it amd how hard you push the brakes depends if you should go for a BBK
02-27-2020, 04:21 AM
#15
I've witnessed someone total their 'Vette on track after boiling the brake fluid and losing the brakes going into the heaviest braking zone on the circuit. If there's one place I'm going to spend money even when I don't think it is absolutelynecessary, it is on the braking system. As Bullwings showed above, there are financial benefits in addition to the obvious improvements in performance, too.
05-28-2020, 09:52 AM
#16
Having gone through a similar spiel with my M3, i'd recommend staying with the Stock Calipers unless you are running significantly more power than stock.
Quick run-down of the M3 and why i chose to stay stock on the S2k.
Bought the M3 as my first track car and ran it with stock calipers, discs and added some brake ducting to keep temps in check. The M3 doesn't suffer from cracked rotors in the same manner as the S2k, so has an advantage there already. Car felt great and even with full weight i couldn't get the braking system to give up the ghost on 200TW tires during the hot Georgia summers.
After a few events i found a great deal on a used PFC kit, front and rear. Immediately started having issues.
Brake balance was thrown off significantly, with the rear braking entirely too much, unsettling the car a LOT. This kit was designed with the E46 M3 in mind, so i was stunned. Tried changing pad compounds (Aggressive front, Endurance rear) and ended up smoking the rear brakes within 10 minutes at the track. Pad wear, regardless of the brake balance issues, was ridiculous as well. The PFC 'padlets' lasted about 2 weekends, be it PFC01,11, 08 or Carbotech and G-Loc compounds. Nothing lasted. The rotors are 355mm, brake-cooling was maintained, however they started spidering immediately and cracking after 4-5 events.
Got absolutely frustrated and took the kit off and went with the small AP front kit and stock rear kit.
Brake-balance is much improved again, the 325mm rotors are closer to stock front size but of a much better design. Brake-cooling was maintained. Rings started spidering during the first weekend already, pads last about 2-3 weekends (Same pad shape as the Stoptech C43s). Rings will probably last 6-8 based on the spidering i'm seeing.
I'm more than likely going to rebuild the stock calipers of the M3 and going back to all stock. Between 50 dollar blanks that last as long as 200+ rings for the PFCs or APs, aside from the fact that i can get free replacements from FCP, it's simply not worth it to me. I'm over 7k in the whole with the BBK, for the cost of the kit alone, let alone pads and lost track time, so i definitely did not want to make the same mistake with the S2k.
First run with the S2k at Road Atlanta was good. Burnt up the remaining pads in a weekend (Winmax, about half worn from PO), stock calipers and stoptech slotted rotors (meh). Front rotor cracked second to last session. No brake-cooling on this car as of right now.
Went ahead and got rebuilt Nissin calipers as well as Girodisc front and Urge Design rear rotors. Pads i got ST43s. Was at Road Atlanta last weekend and shared the car with a pro-driver (Blancpain, Xfinity, etc.) and we set some quick laps for the tires. Ran into some other problems, but braking was never an issue. Both front and rear rotors show zero signs of spidering or worse. Pads i will need to inspect once i have time to check wear. Also temp-paint marked the rotors to check max temps. New calipers definitely got warm based on the color change to gold. Brake-Fluid is SRF.
All in all, i'm extremely happy with the current setup on the S2k. If these rings last a whole season, i'll wholeheartedly recommend this setup.
Food for thought. Although in theory, a BBK will reduce running costs over the long term and yes, they do retain value, especially compared to stock stuff, it's not always worth it. The possibility of messing up your brake balance is very high (piston size matched to your application my butt), consumables may wear just as quickly and the fact that in 5 years, you may not be able to sell the kit for peanuts, let alone the shitty support from some manufacturers (thanks PFC) may not be worth it. I know it's not for me at least.
Quick run-down of the M3 and why i chose to stay stock on the S2k.
Bought the M3 as my first track car and ran it with stock calipers, discs and added some brake ducting to keep temps in check. The M3 doesn't suffer from cracked rotors in the same manner as the S2k, so has an advantage there already. Car felt great and even with full weight i couldn't get the braking system to give up the ghost on 200TW tires during the hot Georgia summers.
After a few events i found a great deal on a used PFC kit, front and rear. Immediately started having issues.
Brake balance was thrown off significantly, with the rear braking entirely too much, unsettling the car a LOT. This kit was designed with the E46 M3 in mind, so i was stunned. Tried changing pad compounds (Aggressive front, Endurance rear) and ended up smoking the rear brakes within 10 minutes at the track. Pad wear, regardless of the brake balance issues, was ridiculous as well. The PFC 'padlets' lasted about 2 weekends, be it PFC01,11, 08 or Carbotech and G-Loc compounds. Nothing lasted. The rotors are 355mm, brake-cooling was maintained, however they started spidering immediately and cracking after 4-5 events.
Got absolutely frustrated and took the kit off and went with the small AP front kit and stock rear kit.
Brake-balance is much improved again, the 325mm rotors are closer to stock front size but of a much better design. Brake-cooling was maintained. Rings started spidering during the first weekend already, pads last about 2-3 weekends (Same pad shape as the Stoptech C43s). Rings will probably last 6-8 based on the spidering i'm seeing.
I'm more than likely going to rebuild the stock calipers of the M3 and going back to all stock. Between 50 dollar blanks that last as long as 200+ rings for the PFCs or APs, aside from the fact that i can get free replacements from FCP, it's simply not worth it to me. I'm over 7k in the whole with the BBK, for the cost of the kit alone, let alone pads and lost track time, so i definitely did not want to make the same mistake with the S2k.
First run with the S2k at Road Atlanta was good. Burnt up the remaining pads in a weekend (Winmax, about half worn from PO), stock calipers and stoptech slotted rotors (meh). Front rotor cracked second to last session. No brake-cooling on this car as of right now.
Went ahead and got rebuilt Nissin calipers as well as Girodisc front and Urge Design rear rotors. Pads i got ST43s. Was at Road Atlanta last weekend and shared the car with a pro-driver (Blancpain, Xfinity, etc.) and we set some quick laps for the tires. Ran into some other problems, but braking was never an issue. Both front and rear rotors show zero signs of spidering or worse. Pads i will need to inspect once i have time to check wear. Also temp-paint marked the rotors to check max temps. New calipers definitely got warm based on the color change to gold. Brake-Fluid is SRF.
All in all, i'm extremely happy with the current setup on the S2k. If these rings last a whole season, i'll wholeheartedly recommend this setup.
Food for thought. Although in theory, a BBK will reduce running costs over the long term and yes, they do retain value, especially compared to stock stuff, it's not always worth it. The possibility of messing up your brake balance is very high (piston size matched to your application my butt), consumables may wear just as quickly and the fact that in 5 years, you may not be able to sell the kit for peanuts, let alone the shitty support from some manufacturers (thanks PFC) may not be worth it. I know it's not for me at least.
05-28-2020, 10:26 AM
#17
^^ real world experience was far better for me than that analysis that i did back in 2015.
I got 40 track days before having to replace the rings. I'm expecting to get more this time around. A local with over 250 track days on his s2k reports getting 80+ days out of his stoptech ST40 328mm rings using Raybestos ST43 pads.
Care to share what BBK you were running on the M3? And were they two-piece floating rotors?
I got 40 track days before having to replace the rings. I'm expecting to get more this time around. A local with over 250 track days on his s2k reports getting 80+ days out of his stoptech ST40 328mm rings using Raybestos ST43 pads.
Care to share what BBK you were running on the M3? And were they two-piece floating rotors?
05-28-2020, 11:26 AM
#18
^^ real world experience was far better for me than that analysis that i did back in 2015.
I got 40 track days before having to replace the rings. I'm expecting to get more this time around. A local with over 250 track days on his s2k reports getting 80+ days out of his stoptech ST40 328mm rings using Raybestos ST43 pads.
Care to share what BBK you were running on the M3? And were they two-piece floating rotors?
I got 40 track days before having to replace the rings. I'm expecting to get more this time around. A local with over 250 track days on his s2k reports getting 80+ days out of his stoptech ST40 328mm rings using Raybestos ST43 pads.
Care to share what BBK you were running on the M3? And were they two-piece floating rotors?
The PFC kit was a ZR31 front (4-piston Monoblock with 4 individual pads) and ZR29 Rear (2-Piston, popular on Formula SAE cars it seems). Rotors are their V2, so fully floating if set up for it.
In general, it has some nice design features, such as removable dust-boots and piston cups, depending on application as well as the anti-knockback springs. On the other hand, the bleed-nipples are mindboggingly horrible (Insert with a super small bleed nipple, guaranteeing it'll shear after a few heat cycles). Support of PFC was also horrible at best and parts in general are extremely expensive, especially compared to Stoptech. It may be less of an issue if you are a pro racing team, but unless you have connections, getting somebody to help you is really really tough. It's also very frustrating that a lot of the parts are discontinued, even though the kit is still being sold, so you have to rely on old stocks (Good luck finding 8 brand-new pistons if you want to rebuild it...).
I do have to say that fellow M3 owners are running different PFC kits to better success. Others are running the most fancy RadiCal AP kit and manage to crack rotors in two weekends, so i have no idea. Fellow M3 owner and pro-driver is running the Stoptech C43 kit on his car, with the corresponding rear kit (sorry, don't recall the name of that one) and it's working really well with good longevity so far. His car is heavy and he runs take-off Pirellis, so definitely gets a good workout. Pads are Pagid (Don't remember if RST or RSL1s.)
We'll see regarding the S2k. So far i'm happy with the Girodisc stuff, although the price for rings is rather high. Pad-wear will be the next question, but may be solvable with better cooling. I'll definitely do some testing. The ST43s definitely threw me off at first, with the high initial bite (Used to more progressively rising bite), nonetheless they are performing really well so far, purely on a performance level.
06-05-2020, 11:12 AM
#19
Interested to see how stock calipers with 2pc vented front and rear works out. I came to that conclusion myself as the best budget solution (address both axles while still being able to use current wheel sets) but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
06-05-2020, 01:26 PM
#20
As posted in a similar thread, I effectively broke even on my C43 front kit in a year. I've run the Urge rear rotors since I bought the car 3 years ago and am also happy with those.
I paid $1800-ish for the kit. The pads that are included with the kit (SR33) are great and I went through a little over half in a year, then switched the Raybestos ST43 since I won a set.
Rotor replacement is $98 for these, pads are $160 for Raybestos ST43
By the way, I see you're the one that bought Sean's Red car. Are you planning on doing any NASA events with it?
I paid $1800-ish for the kit. The pads that are included with the kit (SR33) are great and I went through a little over half in a year, then switched the Raybestos ST43 since I won a set.
Rotor replacement is $98 for these, pads are $160 for Raybestos ST43
By the way, I see you're the one that bought Sean's Red car. Are you planning on doing any NASA events with it?