R1 Concept BBK - S2KI Honda S2000 Forums

Notices
S2000 Brakes and Suspension Discussions about S2000 brake and suspension systems.

R1 Concept BBK

 
Old 01-31-2019, 09:39 AM
  #1  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 202
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default R1 Concept BBK

I am currently in the market for a new BBK and was attracted to the R1 Concept kit. Their kits are very reasonably priced with many great color options for both caliper and rotors. I run their OEM fitment/spec slotted and drilled rotors and pads on my 06 GS300 and noticed a great difference from the OE blanks. I understand that these are two completely different cars. Not being able to find anything about them track review wise, was curious what everyone's input is?

I am currently N/A but will be looking to boost it (450-500hp) within the next year or so, with that said I just want a kit that is going to be well worth the money spent. I have thought about doing both a front and rear kit conversion, however I've ran into mixed information regarding braking bias. The car will see around 5-7 days of full day tracking and wanted to make sure it can hold up. Project Mu and ENDLESS are premium kits but also cost a pretty penny. AP racing offers a kit for the S2K but not sure if the kit from AP Racing/Essex is any good. Stoptechs I hear are really good as well, just looking to try something different.

R1 calipers come standard with aluminum pistons, but for a small fee it can be switched out for stainless steel pistons, and Anti-Knock Back springs. Just curious as I am trying to make a wise and responsible investment.
DS2k02 is offline  
Old 01-31-2019, 10:17 AM
  #2  
Site Moderator
 
Manga_Spawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 12,196
Thanked 112 Times in 99 Posts
Default

With brake kits it all comes down to the availability of replacement parts. No matter how cheap a kit is if there is little to no options for different pad compounds or replacement rings and hardware then it is money wasted. All the main kits you listed are well regarded (though the JDM kits I think fall into the same problem as the R1 kit with less support or at least more expensive support for the same thing). AP and stoptech both have tons of support and different pad options. I have no idea what R1 uses and couldn't even find the listing for their s2000 specific kit.
Manga_Spawn is online now  
Old 01-31-2019, 10:56 AM
  #3  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 202
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Manga_Spawn View Post
With brake kits it all comes down to the availability of replacement parts. No matter how cheap a kit is if there is little to no options for different pad compounds or replacement rings and hardware then it is money wasted. All the main kits you listed are well regarded (though the JDM kits I think fall into the same problem as the R1 kit with less support or at least more expensive support for the same thing). AP and stoptech both have tons of support and different pad options. I have no idea what R1 uses and couldn't even find the listing for their s2000 specific kit.
From talking to R1, the rotors are straight vanes and pads and rotors need to be ordered through them. I'm willing to try it but I hear what you are saying. Do you happen to know of the Project mu bbk is designed to work with the OEM brake system and is designed to not upset the balance of the car during hard braking? AP racing is also a considerable decision, but haven't heard much of a review coming from s2000 owners.
DS2k02 is offline  
Old 01-31-2019, 01:10 PM
  #4  
 
DanielB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 445
Thanked 35 Times in 27 Posts
Default

The other thing to check is how the front/rear balance will be affected. Their website lacks specifics so it's impossible to calculate how it would change. Perhaps they are a young company just getting started and haven't fleshed out the website yet. But it's concerning that they wouldn't spec the important parameters (# pistons and sizes, pad height and rotor diameter). It looks like they let you choose whatever you want a la carte, but that's unlikely to land up matching the OEM balance. Hence you're likely to land up with a great looking BBK that stops longer than stock.

How much cheaper than the established BBK OEMs are they? Buying no-name pad material would be a real concern for me as you don't know how it balances against what you use in the rear. I'm assuming they don't have corresponding pads for OEM calipers as there's no mention on the website. All in all, their website is very polished but seems to emphasize appearance over function. That may be fine for other aspects of our cars, but for me, I wouldn't compromise brake performance. Isn't that the opposite of what a BBK is supposed to accomplish?

Edit: after reading my post again I want to be clear that I'm not saying they don't have a good solution - rather the absence of specifics casts doubt. If you're looking for a budget BBK, you should also consider SakeBomb Garage's Wilwood BBK. As Manga_Spawn points out, they too have their own rotor rings but use standard Wilwood calipers with a broad range of pads available from well-known OEMs who can provide matching pads for the rear. I'm a big fan and use them hard on the track. There's a fair amount of positive feedback on this site too. Not pushing them, just suggesting you check them out as well.

Last edited by DanielB; 01-31-2019 at 01:17 PM.
DanielB is offline  
Old 01-31-2019, 02:00 PM
  #5  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 202
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

I've been talking to one of the reps there for a little bit now though great customer service. I'm still very uncertain about dropping 3600 for both front and rear bbk's with stainless pistons and anti-knockback springs.

I believe they do offer OEM pads for our cars, but only offer R1 specific caliper pads..... a problem. Do you happen to know if any of the other kits (project mu, endless, ap racing) are engineered to work with the stock OEM brake system without throwing to much braking bias to the front?? I dont know much about brakes and have been doing extensive research and don't mind dishing good money for good brakes. Honestly, how well does the stock brake system hold up on a track?
DS2k02 is offline  
Old 02-01-2019, 06:07 AM
  #6  
 
DanielB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 445
Thanked 35 Times in 27 Posts
Default

I think you're going to get a variety of thoughts about the stock brakes, but here's mine. The car was designed in the 90's to the level of tire technology available then. Remember that for a single stop, the limitation on stopping distance is mostly due to the limits of tire grip - at least for just about any modern car. In the case of the S2000, the stock brakes were, and still are, plenty strong for street use. Just use a proper pad with a more aggressive than stock coefficient of friction and be prepared to deal with brake dust and perhaps some noise.

Tire technology has made huge progress since the S2000 was launched and on the track, the stock brake system just does not have the thermal capacity for extended use once you cross over into serious track use. This is obviously a somewhat vague description, but my own experience says that the stock system with dedicated track pads (e.g. Hawk DTC 60) and ducting is at the limit for an NA car with staggered 200TW tire setup. For me, switching to 255 square was the line over which the brakes became a noticeable limitation for me in lap times. Towards the end of a session my braking points were determined by the fade of the brake system instead of the limits of the tires. I don't have experience with power adders, but expect that this will only make it easier to hit the thermal limits of the stock system.

That said, the most important goal of upgrades should be to increase the thermal capacity. Bigger calipers really don't do that - bigger rotors (both diameter and thickness) are needed. The first thing you really need to decide is what you're going to do with the rears because that will determine your options in front. In my case I went with the URGE rear vented rotors which use the stock calipers. This is a significant upgrade in thermal capacity over the stock solid rotors, but it's still relatively small by modern standards. For example, check out the rear brakes on the FRS/BRZ (same weight and slightly less power than S2000) which are vented and larger in diameter and thickness. And there's also an available upgraded system with even larger rotors. The URGE setup has been adequate on track for my stock drivetrain at altitude, but if I was to do it again I think I'd probably spend the extra and go with a bigger setup in the rear. There aren't a lot of options, but as I said above, I'm a fan of the SBG kits and probably would start with their rear BBK that uses the larger RX-8 caliper. There are others too although some don't include support for the parking brake so you have to take that into account if you will still drive on the street.

When I was in your shoes I found it hard to get real data on how each kit would affect the F/R balance. As a baseline, I really like the stock S2000 balance but some feel it is a bit too biased to the rear. I suppose it depends on how much movement in the rear you are comfortable with. In any event, you probably don't want to shift the balance to the rear too much, but be wary of shifting significantly to the front as well to avoid lengthening braking distances. In my previous 240Z I installed a cockpit adjustable brake proportioning valve and was surprised how much of a difference it made when the rear brakes are setup to do their proper share.

It's not rocket science to determine how the brake torque of a BBK will differ from stock. I put this spreadsheet together when I was making my decisions. I'm happy to update with R1 Concepts if you can get them to disclose the following:
  • Number of pistons and diameter of each
  • Pad height
  • Rotor diameter
There's also a financial element to consider which has been discussed here in detail. In short, as you bring the rotor temps down you'll find the pads last longer and the corresponding maintenance at that corner for things like bearings and caliper rebuilds is reduced. Don't discount pad and rotor life as a consumable cost; quality brake components are not cheap so there are real savings to be had if you track regularly. Whether that actually pays for the upgrade itself is open to debate and very much depends on the specifics of your situation, but the point is that even if the upgrade doesn't completely pay for itself, there are real financial benefits over time that go along with a properly done BBK.

One last point: you may have to upgrade wheels to clear the BBK so take that into account as well. That was a tough one for me as I not only did I need a new set for the track, but also for the street.

Apologies for going on a bit here but I found it hard to get advice on strategies for when and how to upgrade brakes that were based on data and real experience. Hopefully you'll get a few other perspectives here as well.

Last edited by DanielB; 02-01-2019 at 06:10 AM.
DanielB is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DanielB For This Useful Post:
adrs2k (02-01-2019), alSpeed2k (02-01-2019)
 
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
HammerBro129
S2000 Racing and Competition
49
02-05-2019 03:39 PM
DS2k02
S2000 Under The Hood
2
02-02-2019 04:02 PM
tut4u2
S2000 Racing and Competition
90
06-18-2018 10:46 AM
tut4u2
S2000 Racing and Competition
8
02-21-2018 05:37 AM
RSXLNT
S2000 Racing and Competition
28
12-31-2010 06:39 PM


Quick Reply: R1 Concept BBK


Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands