thanks for the thoughts, but i must disagree on some points.

i'd be more inclined to believe IPod marketing is the key to their success -- far more than any true equipment superiority. i've met few people who didn't like the IPod commercials... they put the product image out exceptionally well. and along with marketing, they really originated the idea of adding larger format disc storage (vs Flash) into players. they were the first to market a large storage solution. and that gives them a huge lead on the competition.

i'm not saying their equipment is junk... based on what i've seen (aside from the famous battery issues), their stuff has a nice build quality. i'm just saying that they have a big head start, and market very well.

and while their multi-platform integration does make picking up an IPod tempting, the premium for an IPod and additional premiums for their licensed equipment makes it a bit less tempting. so, by buying an IPod, along with that integration, you are also buying a long term committment to supporting Apple. *shrug* i'm already married w/ kids and a house note... enough commitment for me.

and i seriously seriously doubt IPod will gain complete dominance in the next 5-10 years. if nothing else, IPod has been losing market shares to some of the new comers who are doing it cheaper and just as good.
sure, the IPod is the king. i won't argue that... but there are other horses in this race, and the fat lady hasn't sung.

 

I don't think Apple was the first with HD-based devices, they just made them popular. What is even more remarkable to me is that iPods only worked with Macs for the first couple years, and they were limited to 3-5% of the market just because of that.

Some of the original companies in the market are iffy in the area. Creative has always been in the red and they plan to stay there in order to gain market share from their current single-digits percentages. But this is a strange way to do business and I don't see them being a long term player. Rio sold their way out of the market just this year. Dell's product offerings have been decent in terms of features/price, but the styling and user interface is an embarassment. Even Sony has gotten spanked pretty bad and is now partnering with iTunes in the Japanese domestic market.

As of June 05 (most recent figures I have seen) the iPod has 76% of the total MP3 player market. It's around 45% in the flash market and 85-90% in the hard-drive market (and those numbers will swap a little with the new flash-based Nano replacing the HD-based Mini, even though overall share will grow). All of the other competitors are in single digits for market share in both categories. I'd say the iPod is already dominant.

I agree the race isn't over, but it's going to be tough for the other competitors. Apple apparently cornered the market when buying flash memory for the Shuffle and Nano, and they have a pretty agressive R&D schedule with the iPod. For a company that is not used to having market dominance, they're riding the shit out of the iPod horse right now!

 

I think that the iPod is also VERY well marketed. They probably were not the FIRST to think of putting formatted storage on a mobile media device, but they were the first to make it available to the mass public and at a "decent" price.

As far as your statements regarding Creative, I disagree. Just because their quarterly financial statements are in the red does not mean that the company is floundering, but rather because they are throw tons of money into R&D (most likely scenario), and as most accoutants know, R&D cannot be capitalize, it must be expensed (thus the red figures). Financial statements are more smoke and mirrors and anything. Look at Enron and Worldcom. They had OUTSTANDING financial statements, put out by some creative (and mostly NOT illegal at the time) accounting methods. You really need some sort of internal knowledge of the company, or at least their general ledger system to really see what is going on.

I think that the iPod is a great mp3 player, but the fact that you must use iTunes to load it (without outside software) makes it a pain. As well as the fact that in order to upload the *cough* FREE *cough* downloaded mp3's, you have to first burn them to another disc, so as to sort of "fool" iTunes into thinking that it is a legitimate compilation CD. Also, The iPod (for the amount of time it has been out, and the % of the market it has garnered, it could be sold at a lower price. The production costs cannot be nearly as high as say the Creative player, as iPod has been in production for several years now.

As of now, I think that almost all mp3 players are of similar quality (with the exception of the Dell.....a whole other subject). Just some have marquis names and they get a premium for that.

John

 

yeah... this may be true. i did a little reading though, and was pretty sure i saw some references to the 1st IPod being the first drive based MP3 player. *shrug*
not all that important, as what is important is that they launched it right and marketed it right.

i trust Creative to put a good product out there and stand behind it because they are still quite strong in their soundcard and other fields. they offer support, long after products are retired, and are a strong company with a history of good sound quality.
the fact that the Zen Touch battery is only $40 and is readily user swappable alleviates those concerns... and frankly, it's easy to use and a guy here who owns both (won't mention his name, he can step up if he wants) told me about how the IPod software is far more troublesome than the Creative software.

i have 30 days to 'try it out' and trade it for an IPod if i want... we'll see. i'm pretty convinced that the Zen is my best option.

i was disappointed to see Rio pull out of the market, as i have one of their original flash players, and it has been a solid performer.

WHAT!?
ok, no IPod for me. most of my MP3's aren't illegitimate, but enough are that this makes it a no go...
are you serious?! i am simply astounded that i can't just load it up with what i already have...

also, i'll admit it. the IPod's dirty secret movie and the fact that an average Joe can't replace the battery, also seriously ruined my opinion. knowing that i can drop 4 screws and replace the Zen battery? golden.

 

I previously used an IRiver type MP3 player. The battery cover would always come off quite easily and I got sick of it. Not wanting to join the Apple crowd, I never fukt with an IPOD. Well I have one now, and it does the job. People make too much out of the Itunes crap, it's really not that big of a deal. I'd prefer a better interface with less propietary bs, but it does the job. The cool thing about the IPOD is the seamless transition. If your deck in the car is one of the newer IPOD capable decks, it becomes that much better. You can put the IPOD in the car, hooks up in 1-2 seconds, control the tracks via your H/U. Get to work, take the IPOD with you, and mount it in a docking station. At night take it with you in the gym, with a good set of headphones, jogging, etc. I'd buy a 30-40 Gig ipod and get a docking station w/ speakers and call it a day

Upgrade your H/U later

 

According to what I've read online in various investor magazines, Creative is upside down on the players themselves -- selling certain models at a loss. With a small market share, they are at a disadvantage when it comes to buying components and getting fab done. On the other hand, Apple has over 50% profit on the Nano. One reason for this is that they have bought almost 40% of the world supply of flash memory recently and got a huge discount from Samsung. Back when the were using mini HDs in the iPod Mini, Apple was basically commanding all production of those.

Nothing against Creative, but they are clearly in the evolutionary stage of product R&D where development costs are not extravagent. The only time R&D costs get out of hand compared to profits is when you are starting to make major breakthroughs and leapfrogging competitors. I don't see any of the MP3 manufacturers, even Apple, really doing that now. Creative is simply selling at a loss in order to make market share inroads (similar to the employee pricing the American car companies did this summer -- GM market share shot up even though profits suffered).

Now, to some of your points; an iPod can be used just like a hard drive, and if you know where/how to stick the music, you can load stuff on the player without iTunes. There are many utilities that make this real easy, but it's quite simple. But honestly, iTunes is so good, I don't know why anyone would not want to use this.

Second, you are wrong about free MP3s. You can just add them to your iTunes library and they do not need to be transferred to CD. I have a bunch of "free" MP3s from many years ago in my iTunes library and all I had to do was drag/drop them in. The first time I installed iTunes on my wife's computer, it found all the MP3s she had ripped in the previous years and just imported them. There was no need to play any games with a CD.

You would need to burn a CD if you wanted to take tunes purchased through the online iTunes store and give them to someone else. This would circumvent the DRM and also be illegal, of course. But as long as the music is yours, or has no DRM protection, you can simply drag/drop, import, or copy the files around.

 

Dammit Phil, have I taught you nothing over our period of friendship?

First of all, mention Cambridge Soundworks around me again, Ill come down there, and hit you with a lead pipe repeatedly. They are almost as good as the stock honda headrest speakers.

Now, here is the setup....
First of all, the best player on the market right now (I own a 40 gig IPOD and a Creative NOMAD) is the Toshiba gigabeat.


Amazon.com sells the 40 giger for $292.93
Buy.com sells the 60 giger for $339.99

Now, as for the desktop....
You could go this route,

But this would set you back 600 bucks....

Now, I have always been a fan of JVCs micro-systems...I though they sounded great.
This particular model....is very interesting....JVC FS-G5
Its compact...
It has a remote
It has a 5CD player in it....
Now, the coolest thing is, it has a usb connectivity, so it can play files direct from any USB player.
Its 90wattsx2


As for pricing, its $149 from crutchfield
Amazon has it for $140

Now, lets move up a bit....I know you are a quality junkie....so top shelf for you my man...Ive always been impressed with ONKYOs stuff...so here is something....

1)Onkyo MC-35


This would work for you, as it has 5 audio inputs.
$248 from amazon.

Next we have the Onkyo CS-210 $169 at Amazon



Next we have the Panasonic SCPM91D
5 Disc CD/DVD changer

Cheapest I found was again, Amazon, for $220

Finally, one entry from Philips, which again, has a digital USB input, ideal for your situation....
Philips MCM530
$140 on Amazon (its like they are giving these things away)


I will keep trying to find a good price on a DENON micro, because they are the sh!t, but until then, chew on this crawfish boy.


*EDIT....IM WAAAAAAAAY TO LATE FOR THE PARTY!*

 

This is the set up i have in my office. It's not stereo but in a small system your not going to get true stereo sound. This little thing is pretty clear. ok bass. I know in my office i can't crank up the tunes before people start poking there heads in and saying something. The tuner with out an antenna is great. It is almost as good as my car.





the nano is way too small (4gb) for what you needed.

 

too late guys... it was supposed to be here Friday, but Rita joined us, and it didn't come. now, i'm waiting till Monday. both to get my player, and the radio...

till then, i'll enjoy my new roof leak... as if 1 from Katrina wasn't enough.


btw, i'm planning to use Crutchfield's 30 day no questions if i have to...

we'll see, the Cambridge unit (i know... i'm no fan either), got good reviews from some people i respected, so i figured i'd give it a try. i need something pretty small and indiscrete, and it looked ok... we'll see.

i also strongly considered the Tivoli option, but in the end... eh...

 

alright -- update here just in case this ever gets searched up in the future.

everything came in Tuesday. i loaded up the Zen last night and set everything up in the office today.

intial thoughts? i'm happy w/ the setup, and it discreetly fits in and doesn't draw attention in the office.

thoughts on the Zen: player sounds quite nice, and the software works and is easy to figure out. haven't tried ripping with it, but organizing, etc. has been pretty easy. the one thing this player (and software) has demonstrated to me is just how not-perfect my MP3 collection and tags are. lots of little variations in naming (ie. Dave Matthews Band is not Dave Matthew's Band, etc.) stand out like sore thumbs. also, i need to setup some good playlists to keep all the genere's sorted and from mixing into each other... don't want to go from Chevelle to Chopin.

thoughts on the Cambridge Soundworks 730:
honestly, it sounds much better than i expected. it has a much smoother and cleaner sound than the bose unit (not surprised). it's easy to operate, has a little ported subwoofer in the base which fills in the lows very well even at low volume, generally is easy to hear at low volumes, and doesn't stand out (sorry Dave, but some of those units you mentioned, i looked at earlier, but my office isn't THAT big, and they would stand out as very odd when most other people in the building just have cheap alarm clocks for radios.).


all in all, i'm happy w/ my choices, but still eye the IPod every so often... i think if the Alpine to IPod controls were a bit more friendly for the 9833, i would have gone w/ the IPod.


i'll comment more on both after i've listened to it more, and if people care. i haven't played w/ the Soundworks electronic sound processing yet, but don't expect it to be what i'm looking for... and i clearly need to get more used to the Zen, and work a bit more on solidifying my MP3 collection and filling in some of the tag holes that i didn't realize i even had.


(oh, and my roof leaks have been patched now, and will be completely repaired in a week or two. )