Review: Bi-amp on the KFC-XR600
06-11-2001, 09:44 AM
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Just one last point I forgot to mention.
Any passive device used will A. use power and B. introduce distortion. Since it is impossible to build a "perfect" circuit, one that responds down to the infinite degree, there is no way to split frequncies without introducing errors. Why do you think resitors and capcicitors have percent error markings. Many of which when combined can introduce an overall percentage of error in the 10's of percentage. That's a lot of mis matched values, however, this is usually acceptable to the average consumer.
-- Robert
Any passive device used will A. use power and B. introduce distortion. Since it is impossible to build a "perfect" circuit, one that responds down to the infinite degree, there is no way to split frequncies without introducing errors. Why do you think resitors and capcicitors have percent error markings. Many of which when combined can introduce an overall percentage of error in the 10's of percentage. That's a lot of mis matched values, however, this is usually acceptable to the average consumer.
-- Robert
06-11-2001, 10:16 AM
#12
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Boy this thread is getting out of hand once again.
Well I will not make accusations just state the facts that I know them. Having an electrical engineering degree does not make you a good installer! When I say cross over it is a usage of something to block the frequencies to certain speakers.
As for running a whole system off 2 channels.....yes it can be done! Will it blow up a amp NO not if done right. Will it sould just as good as an active cross over system pretty close! An audio phile like myself would go totally active not only for the SLIGHT advantage of sound quality but the ability to change the cross over frequncies of each speaker matching the roll off points of each speaker.
How do you think you can run separates but if you test them with an ohms meter that they show 4 ohms? I have seen a 3 speaker separate system done in a S2000 each speaker is probably not run independently....its "crossed over" properly for each speaker to play just the frequncies that they are supposed to. That is how you can run a whole system off 2 channels.
I found a great sight to explain some of this stuff. I am not the best in getting things out for people to explain. I am no going to get into quoting first order or second order filters its a non issue with me. Im talking real world sound! Plus if your just using a head unit and doing this much work for separates.....you really need a separate amplifier to run separates correctly!
http://www.davidmannaudio.com/faq/faq12.html
Well I will not make accusations just state the facts that I know them. Having an electrical engineering degree does not make you a good installer! When I say cross over it is a usage of something to block the frequencies to certain speakers.
As for running a whole system off 2 channels.....yes it can be done! Will it blow up a amp NO not if done right. Will it sould just as good as an active cross over system pretty close! An audio phile like myself would go totally active not only for the SLIGHT advantage of sound quality but the ability to change the cross over frequncies of each speaker matching the roll off points of each speaker.
How do you think you can run separates but if you test them with an ohms meter that they show 4 ohms? I have seen a 3 speaker separate system done in a S2000 each speaker is probably not run independently....its "crossed over" properly for each speaker to play just the frequncies that they are supposed to. That is how you can run a whole system off 2 channels.
I found a great sight to explain some of this stuff. I am not the best in getting things out for people to explain. I am no going to get into quoting first order or second order filters its a non issue with me. Im talking real world sound! Plus if your just using a head unit and doing this much work for separates.....you really need a separate amplifier to run separates correctly!
http://www.davidmannaudio.com/faq/faq12.html
06-11-2001, 01:54 PM
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To everyone (who own the KFC-XR600s) other then Pinky:
Despite all of the meaningless arguments above, I still believe that wiring up the rear channel to the woofer and the front to the tweater makes a difference. How much of a difference, well thats up for you to decide. But, let me give you a few of my observations:
1. Wired only from the front channels = not loud enough with top down at speed, major distortion due to low freqs.
2. Wire with both and no fading = clearer (hard to descibe, but it does sound better) with top up and low-mid volume levels
3. Wire both, no fader, top down and at speed = Volume required causes minor-major distortion depending on song (read low freqs).
4. Wire both, fade to tweater, top down and at speed = treble is loud enough, but is a little harsh due to less mids and lows. But, this is much better then A. listening to horrible distortion and B. destroying your woofer due to amp clipping.
Seems to me that if I had just a few more watts at RMS the woofer and tweater would be just fine at the volume required to hear it with the top down.
All in all, for someone who wants to put off buying an amp, I'd say #4 is about as good as you can get it. I do believe an amp is a must... but everyone has their own preferences when it comes to volume and types of music.
Now there is one other possability, which I surely hope is not the correct one. The kenwoods may not be able to handle the measly 18 watts RMS and it is the speaker, not the amp, casuing the distortion. Only adding an amp (or expensive test equipment) can test this theory. I will report back after I add my amp.
Later folks!
-- Robert
Despite all of the meaningless arguments above, I still believe that wiring up the rear channel to the woofer and the front to the tweater makes a difference. How much of a difference, well thats up for you to decide. But, let me give you a few of my observations:
1. Wired only from the front channels = not loud enough with top down at speed, major distortion due to low freqs.
2. Wire with both and no fading = clearer (hard to descibe, but it does sound better) with top up and low-mid volume levels
3. Wire both, no fader, top down and at speed = Volume required causes minor-major distortion depending on song (read low freqs).
4. Wire both, fade to tweater, top down and at speed = treble is loud enough, but is a little harsh due to less mids and lows. But, this is much better then A. listening to horrible distortion and B. destroying your woofer due to amp clipping.
Seems to me that if I had just a few more watts at RMS the woofer and tweater would be just fine at the volume required to hear it with the top down.
All in all, for someone who wants to put off buying an amp, I'd say #4 is about as good as you can get it. I do believe an amp is a must... but everyone has their own preferences when it comes to volume and types of music.
Now there is one other possability, which I surely hope is not the correct one. The kenwoods may not be able to handle the measly 18 watts RMS and it is the speaker, not the amp, casuing the distortion. Only adding an amp (or expensive test equipment) can test this theory. I will report back after I add my amp.
Later folks!
-- Robert
06-11-2001, 04:14 PM
#14
Have to laugh here kids and sorry I pitted you against each other....I thought we were all adults here......guess I was wrong. I have the utmost respect for the opinions of both Pinky and MacGyver on this forum. To let you in on a little secret Goltrom, Pinky and I went round and round on this very concept not too many months ago. And I mean round and round and round and round. Since that time Pinkster and I have become good online friends. Trust me he knows the KFC XR-600 well as we beat it's design to death. I got my KFC XR-600's soon after Barry in Wyoming got his. I had the exact same concept as you. I contacted Crutchfield and when they gave the same answer as Pinky I contacted the engineers at Kenwood. I bridged mine just as all three experts recommended for the S2000 application. If it does work as you say I'd love it as it sounds so logical from a common sense standpoint. Happy motoring......
Utah
Utah
06-11-2001, 06:01 PM
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Utah S2K. Fine, you beat it to death, but did you try it? From your post, all you mention is talk...
As far as Pinky knowing the KFC XR-600... His posts imply quite the opposite...
His very first statment:
He assumes I have purchased some low grade cross over, or have mis-wired the +/- terminals, since that is all the wiring involved. Of course, he could have meant the S2K stock wire... but his "tone" in future posts would imply the former.
Now tell me this, why would a two-way speaker with a built in high-pass need a cross over at all? If it was needed, then why didn't kenwood supply it? or even mention the need for it? This is a single component, yes, two speakers, but still a single unit and should include proper wiring instructions.
.
HELLO, the high pass i a soldered component... I would have had to physically ripped off the built in high pass... How the heck, could some one who *knows* these speakers so well, blieve I would have ripped off the high pass and allowed the lows into my poor little tweeter? I am of course assuming he *knew* there was a high pass built onto the tweeter.
The kenwoods are not "seperates" as Pinky implied in his final post,, they are single unit....
Finally, I'd like to say that this "discussion" has felt like an attack almost since the first post by Pinky. I don't believe in jumping into defensive mode based on what I "could" read as an attack (i.e., there is some doubt). But telling someone that their degree doesn't matter and they should go read a book, how could you not take that as an attack?
I was very carefull in my first post not to attempt to base any of my observations on technical data, but on observations/opinions, which as we all know are heavily biased.... Yet, Pinky decided to make this a technical "dicussion".
I being a technical person, am more then happy to "discuss" technical things. I may not install car audio for a living, but I have enough background knowledge to understand what is going on. Not too mention I have been doing this for about 7 years....
I could go on and on forever, but this is just rediculous.
-- Robert
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-- Albert Einstein
As far as Pinky knowing the KFC XR-600... His posts imply quite the opposite...
His very first statment:
Something is definity wrong with your original wiring then! If it is that much louder then your passive cross over was definitly not a high quality one. I have seen it happen before but they can hamper the sound quality coming to the speakers.
Now tell me this, why would a two-way speaker with a built in high-pass need a cross over at all? If it was needed, then why didn't kenwood supply it? or even mention the need for it? This is a single component, yes, two speakers, but still a single unit and should include proper wiring instructions.
So what your doing now is driving both the woofer and tweeter with full range music.......making your tweeter play lower than it was before because it was crossed off. That will make it seem louder because you effectively have now 2 speakers playing the same music hence getting a 3db gain on each set of speakers
HELLO, the high pass i a soldered component... I would have had to physically ripped off the built in high pass... How the heck, could some one who *knows* these speakers so well, blieve I would have ripped off the high pass and allowed the lows into my poor little tweeter? I am of course assuming he *knew* there was a high pass built onto the tweeter.
The kenwoods are not "seperates" as Pinky implied in his final post,, they are single unit....
Plus if your just using a head unit and doing this much work for separates.....you really need a separate amplifier to run separates correctly!
I was very carefull in my first post not to attempt to base any of my observations on technical data, but on observations/opinions, which as we all know are heavily biased.... Yet, Pinky decided to make this a technical "dicussion".
I being a technical person, am more then happy to "discuss" technical things. I may not install car audio for a living, but I have enough background knowledge to understand what is going on. Not too mention I have been doing this for about 7 years....
I could go on and on forever, but this is just rediculous.
-- Robert
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-- Albert Einstein
06-11-2001, 09:14 PM
#17
Oh forgot to mention.....Pinky does do this for a living, and oh by the way is the Moderator of this Forum because of his expertise in audio electronics. I myself design flight controls for airplanes for a living and am very familiar with electronics too..........
06-11-2001, 09:51 PM
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Utah S2K:
Now we are getting somewhere constructive... I feel the loving... (sarcasim)
My god people. This is supposed to be a place to help people, not rip them to shreds. I'll admit that the way I have phrased a few of my responses was a little bit pro-active... However, I was seriously responding to Pinky's comments. All the questions I asked were meant as questions and not as attacks.
DID YOU EVER TRY IT? Speak from experince, throw out your "reommendations", your "techincal arguments"... TRY IT... if it doesn't sound better then that is your opinion, I accept that, but to blindly attack someone, give me a break.
As far as the techincal arguments go, I welcome challenges that are based in physics or any other "science" of your choice... but all I get is crap (not talking about his technical arguments, but his personal attacks).
Cthree, no offense to you, but anyone who is so unwillingly to accept mistakes and offer actual intelligent conversation should not be a moderator of a forum.
And if we all want o brag about what we do some more fine... I design & verify CPU's for one of the big three... So, yes my expertise is in digital design not analog, but every designer has to take EE classes. I've never claimed to be an expert on audio design, and don't ever really care to be one. But, all the arguments I have presented are based on the most fundemental principles of signal & circuit anylysis... you don't have to know jack about speakers.
Anyways... I would prefer that you two not respond to any of my future posts... I don't find your reponses at all constructive or beneficial.
Now we are getting somewhere constructive... I feel the loving... (sarcasim)
My god people. This is supposed to be a place to help people, not rip them to shreds. I'll admit that the way I have phrased a few of my responses was a little bit pro-active... However, I was seriously responding to Pinky's comments. All the questions I asked were meant as questions and not as attacks.
DID YOU EVER TRY IT? Speak from experince, throw out your "reommendations", your "techincal arguments"... TRY IT... if it doesn't sound better then that is your opinion, I accept that, but to blindly attack someone, give me a break.
As far as the techincal arguments go, I welcome challenges that are based in physics or any other "science" of your choice... but all I get is crap (not talking about his technical arguments, but his personal attacks).
Cthree, no offense to you, but anyone who is so unwillingly to accept mistakes and offer actual intelligent conversation should not be a moderator of a forum.
And if we all want o brag about what we do some more fine... I design & verify CPU's for one of the big three... So, yes my expertise is in digital design not analog, but every designer has to take EE classes. I've never claimed to be an expert on audio design, and don't ever really care to be one. But, all the arguments I have presented are based on the most fundemental principles of signal & circuit anylysis... you don't have to know jack about speakers.
Anyways... I would prefer that you two not respond to any of my future posts... I don't find your reponses at all constructive or beneficial.
06-12-2001, 05:49 AM
#19
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So far, this thread has six posters: Goldstrom, Utah, Pinky, Macgyver, DJRobNM and me. Everyone here has something positive to contribute, and I am really sorry feelings have gotten hurt. We can do better.
Goldstrom posted an interesting experiment for those of us with Kenwood xr600 speakers and no rear speakers.
When my installer first installed my Alpine CDA-7876 head (27 watts rms/channel, "60 watts per channel" advertised, and I put in one of my favorite CDs, my heart sank. I heard horrible low frequency distortion. These "60 watt x 4" Alpine heads draw enough current that Alpine recommends wiring them directly to battery and ground with 10 gauge wire. We did that on my install and still I heard far to much low end distortion. I felt like I'd made a $400 mistake installing an after-market head.
The installer heard the problem and implemented the head's high pass filter, setting it for 130 hz. It can be set for "off" or any of several frequencies up to 160 hz. That eliminated the distortion and much of the bass.
By the way, the CDA-7876 has a "high pass filter" and a "low pass filter" and Alpine calls those filters "cross over" settings. The manual says, "Adjusting the built in cross over. You can change High Pass Filter and Low Pass Filter on this unit, so that you can create your favorite sound effects."
Right now, I've got both components of the speakers running off of the stock speaker wire, stock wiring harness, wired in parallel as recommended by Kenwood and as wired by Utah and initially by Goldstrom.
Since I'm looking for practical advice, I'm really interested in Goldstrom's experiment.
It is very much too bad that this thread has degenerated. Utah, you know you are one of the people I most respect on this board..without doubt. Pinky has more stereo experience than anyone else I know, so, Pinky, I respect you too. Macgyver has helped me with my speaker install, my "mute" button relay install and my PAC SWI-3 purchase and install. You know, buddy, I count on you.
There is no place here for knocking someone based on how many posts he has. Perhaps it is valid to show someone's "durability" on the board. However, physics does not obey "rule by majority.". Ask Gallileo. Ask the Challenger victims.
Goldstrom has made valuable posts here and definitely should be welcomed. I'm really sorry feelings have gotten hurt! This is a great group and there is no reason for putting anyone down while discussing differences of opinion.
I want to hear a discussion of the pluses and minuses of Goldstrom's wiring. Could it just be the 16 gauge wire and not the "bi-amp" wiring? Could it be just the "bi-amp" wiring and not the 16 gauge wire? Is 16 gauge overkill for such a short run with the amount of current the wire would carry to a woofer or speaker pair? Would 18 gauge do just as well and be easier to thread? Should both the tweeters and the woofers of the xr600 have new wire? How does the choice of stereo head affect this? Do you really deliver more clean power to a pair of front speakers if you use both the front and rear outputs of the stereo head?
I'd like this thread to continue and if I try Goldstrom's setup, I'll report my results too.
Barry
Goldstrom posted an interesting experiment for those of us with Kenwood xr600 speakers and no rear speakers.
When my installer first installed my Alpine CDA-7876 head (27 watts rms/channel, "60 watts per channel" advertised, and I put in one of my favorite CDs, my heart sank. I heard horrible low frequency distortion. These "60 watt x 4" Alpine heads draw enough current that Alpine recommends wiring them directly to battery and ground with 10 gauge wire. We did that on my install and still I heard far to much low end distortion. I felt like I'd made a $400 mistake installing an after-market head.
The installer heard the problem and implemented the head's high pass filter, setting it for 130 hz. It can be set for "off" or any of several frequencies up to 160 hz. That eliminated the distortion and much of the bass.
By the way, the CDA-7876 has a "high pass filter" and a "low pass filter" and Alpine calls those filters "cross over" settings. The manual says, "Adjusting the built in cross over. You can change High Pass Filter and Low Pass Filter on this unit, so that you can create your favorite sound effects."
Right now, I've got both components of the speakers running off of the stock speaker wire, stock wiring harness, wired in parallel as recommended by Kenwood and as wired by Utah and initially by Goldstrom.
Since I'm looking for practical advice, I'm really interested in Goldstrom's experiment.
It is very much too bad that this thread has degenerated. Utah, you know you are one of the people I most respect on this board..without doubt. Pinky has more stereo experience than anyone else I know, so, Pinky, I respect you too. Macgyver has helped me with my speaker install, my "mute" button relay install and my PAC SWI-3 purchase and install. You know, buddy, I count on you.
There is no place here for knocking someone based on how many posts he has. Perhaps it is valid to show someone's "durability" on the board. However, physics does not obey "rule by majority.". Ask Gallileo. Ask the Challenger victims.
Goldstrom has made valuable posts here and definitely should be welcomed. I'm really sorry feelings have gotten hurt! This is a great group and there is no reason for putting anyone down while discussing differences of opinion.
I want to hear a discussion of the pluses and minuses of Goldstrom's wiring. Could it just be the 16 gauge wire and not the "bi-amp" wiring? Could it be just the "bi-amp" wiring and not the 16 gauge wire? Is 16 gauge overkill for such a short run with the amount of current the wire would carry to a woofer or speaker pair? Would 18 gauge do just as well and be easier to thread? Should both the tweeters and the woofers of the xr600 have new wire? How does the choice of stereo head affect this? Do you really deliver more clean power to a pair of front speakers if you use both the front and rear outputs of the stereo head?
I'd like this thread to continue and if I try Goldstrom's setup, I'll report my results too.
Barry
06-12-2001, 06:53 AM
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The speaker wire Honda puts in the car is 16 gauge. I would recommend this as a minimum for driving woofers or full range speakers. Going to 18 gauge would have negligible effect on the loudness though. If you are going to biamp, you should use an electronic crossover designed for that purpose. Then you adjust the crsossover frequency for a smooth frequency response. Here is an example of an affordable electronic crossover.
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-YuY9n...489QX11&o=M&a=0
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-YuY9n...489QX11&o=M&a=0