Review: Bi-amp on the KFC-XR600
06-12-2001, 07:02 AM
#21
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Originally posted by NSXS
The speaker wire Honda puts in the car is 16 gauge.
The speaker wire Honda puts in the car is 16 gauge.
Thanks for the reply.
06-12-2001, 07:40 AM
#22
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I will try to bring this all together.
Using a filter to stop a speaker from producing certain frequencies limits the range that the amplifier sees for OHMS. Hence a tweeter playing 20,000 hz(top of human hearing 35,000 like the KFC-XR600 claim is BS!) down to say 3,000 hz. Then the Woofer will play from ~3,000 down to 40 hz because a 6" is just not capable of playing realisticly down to 30 hz like they claim it just makes distortion down that low.
In this fashon the amplifier "sees" a speaker playing from ~40hz straight up to ~20,000 hz with a little overlapping at 3,000 hz.....but nothing to cause the amp any heart ache.(reading 4 ohms) If you bi-amplify that speaker one channel sees ~40hz to ~3,000hz and thats it(reading 4 ohms)......then the other channel sees ~3,000hz to ~20,000 hz(reading 4 ohms).
As for the power needed its rated for 180 watts nominal(or RMS) rating is going to be about 50 watts......As Barry said the Alpine pushes a advertised *27 watts rms/channel, "60 watts per channel"* About half of what the speaker really needs to see! Effectively way underpowered. Any tiny little extra power will help here since no matter what happens it wont be enough. So running in a Bi-amplified mode it might get you a tiny bit more power by spreading the load over more channels.
As for these speakers being component speakers....they are! Any speakers setup that is a woofer with a separate tweeter(non coax) is a separate it my book! It can be pole mounted like Cadence or Memphis or with straps like Kenwood. You will read it says...."*Tweeter: 1" UFLC Soft Dome *Woofer: 6" Pearl-Mica Injection-Molded Polypropylene Cone"
As for my knowlege and how I present my statements I do not sugar coat anything! I however must retract what I said about there being NO difference between a bi-amplified system and a passively crossed over system but that difference will be slight. Every setup that I have ever used that was a woofer with a separate pole mounted or hung tweeter used a separate crossover block. All sounded great! Memphis being the loudest things I have ever heard off a stock head; they are super efficient and probably is one of the only separates that could be run off the stock head but an amp would have been even better. The little passive bass blockers always and I mean always sucked up major juice and made the speakers play like crap!
I hope this clears things up for people and did not get to "technical" I try to keep things on a rudimentary level so all can participate and understand.......though some take it to a different level and I unfortunatly must step up and play on their level which I try not to.
Using a filter to stop a speaker from producing certain frequencies limits the range that the amplifier sees for OHMS. Hence a tweeter playing 20,000 hz(top of human hearing 35,000 like the KFC-XR600 claim is BS!) down to say 3,000 hz. Then the Woofer will play from ~3,000 down to 40 hz because a 6" is just not capable of playing realisticly down to 30 hz like they claim it just makes distortion down that low.
In this fashon the amplifier "sees" a speaker playing from ~40hz straight up to ~20,000 hz with a little overlapping at 3,000 hz.....but nothing to cause the amp any heart ache.(reading 4 ohms) If you bi-amplify that speaker one channel sees ~40hz to ~3,000hz and thats it(reading 4 ohms)......then the other channel sees ~3,000hz to ~20,000 hz(reading 4 ohms).
As for the power needed its rated for 180 watts nominal(or RMS) rating is going to be about 50 watts......As Barry said the Alpine pushes a advertised *27 watts rms/channel, "60 watts per channel"* About half of what the speaker really needs to see! Effectively way underpowered. Any tiny little extra power will help here since no matter what happens it wont be enough. So running in a Bi-amplified mode it might get you a tiny bit more power by spreading the load over more channels.
As for these speakers being component speakers....they are! Any speakers setup that is a woofer with a separate tweeter(non coax) is a separate it my book! It can be pole mounted like Cadence or Memphis or with straps like Kenwood. You will read it says...."*Tweeter: 1" UFLC Soft Dome *Woofer: 6" Pearl-Mica Injection-Molded Polypropylene Cone"
As for my knowlege and how I present my statements I do not sugar coat anything! I however must retract what I said about there being NO difference between a bi-amplified system and a passively crossed over system but that difference will be slight. Every setup that I have ever used that was a woofer with a separate pole mounted or hung tweeter used a separate crossover block. All sounded great! Memphis being the loudest things I have ever heard off a stock head; they are super efficient and probably is one of the only separates that could be run off the stock head but an amp would have been even better. The little passive bass blockers always and I mean always sucked up major juice and made the speakers play like crap!
I hope this clears things up for people and did not get to "technical" I try to keep things on a rudimentary level so all can participate and understand.......though some take it to a different level and I unfortunatly must step up and play on their level which I try not to.
06-12-2001, 07:43 AM
#23
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Barry WY Silver/Black '01
[B]
It looked so thin when I installed my speakers!
[B]
It looked so thin when I installed my speakers!
06-12-2001, 08:51 AM
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Pinky:
Thank you for returning to the discssion.
The number one thing that bothers me about what you said is the fact that the amp sees 4 Ohms no matter which way I wire the speakers... Can you explain how this is so? If each is 4 Ohms, then when wired in parallel they combine to 4 ohms, then doesn't one (or both) of the speakers have to be dynmically changing their impedence?
I'd like to end with a relevant quote form South Park
:
Johnny Cochrane: Ladies and gentlemen of this deposed jury, you must now decide whether to reverse the decision on my client Chef. I know he seems guilty. But ladies and gentlemen [pulls down a Picture of Chewbacca] this is Chewbacca. Now think about that for one minute. That does not make sense. Why am I talking about Chewbacca when a man's life is on the line? Why? I'll tell you why. I don't know. It doesn't make sense. If Chewbacca does not make sense you must acquit. Here look at the monkey [holds up a monkey], look at the silly monkey.
Thank you for returning to the discssion.
The number one thing that bothers me about what you said is the fact that the amp sees 4 Ohms no matter which way I wire the speakers... Can you explain how this is so? If each is 4 Ohms, then when wired in parallel they combine to 4 ohms, then doesn't one (or both) of the speakers have to be dynmically changing their impedence?
I'd like to end with a relevant quote form South Park
:Johnny Cochrane: Ladies and gentlemen of this deposed jury, you must now decide whether to reverse the decision on my client Chef. I know he seems guilty. But ladies and gentlemen [pulls down a Picture of Chewbacca] this is Chewbacca. Now think about that for one minute. That does not make sense. Why am I talking about Chewbacca when a man's life is on the line? Why? I'll tell you why. I don't know. It doesn't make sense. If Chewbacca does not make sense you must acquit. Here look at the monkey [holds up a monkey], look at the silly monkey.
06-12-2001, 09:12 AM
#25
Registered User
Pinky, thanks a lot for your last two posts. That does help me. I agree that you can call the xr600s components since they have separate places to connect the separate components of tweeter and woofer.
Is NSXS right that Honda uses 16 gauge wire for the speakers? That was news to me. I think Macgyver said on his web page that the Honda harness wire was more like vapor-wire.
Pinky, it sounds to me like trying Goldstrom's work around is worth it. I think it should get a bit more power from the head to the speakers in my setup. If I had just wired the head to the stock harness, I think I would have had the head current starved. Since I made the effort to wire the head to the battery, I should see if I can coax some more of that "60 watts x 4" out.
I've spent the last two hours sitting in my parked S2000 listening to some new cds at various volumes and with various settings.
Is that sick or healthy?
Where do you get the zip ties you use to feed the wire through?
In spite of the heat, this thread has quite a bit of light too.
Is NSXS right that Honda uses 16 gauge wire for the speakers? That was news to me. I think Macgyver said on his web page that the Honda harness wire was more like vapor-wire.
Pinky, it sounds to me like trying Goldstrom's work around is worth it. I think it should get a bit more power from the head to the speakers in my setup. If I had just wired the head to the stock harness, I think I would have had the head current starved. Since I made the effort to wire the head to the battery, I should see if I can coax some more of that "60 watts x 4" out.
I've spent the last two hours sitting in my parked S2000 listening to some new cds at various volumes and with various settings.
Is that sick or healthy?
Where do you get the zip ties you use to feed the wire through?
In spite of the heat, this thread has quite a bit of light too.
06-12-2001, 09:27 AM
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Hi Barry,
I really should be working, since I am at work... but Let me answer what I can.
The Honda wire is very thin... it may be techincally 16-gauge, but the monster cable had both more strands of copper (I didn't count but it was about twice as thick), and WAY more insulation. The insulation on the monster cable was as thick as some cheap 12-gauge I've seen.
The zip ties are black plastics ones I found at radio shack, they are about 2 or more feet long, just enough to snake through the door.
I stripped one wire, tied it to the hole in the zip tie, then ran electrical tape around the whole thing to make it smooth. However, you MUST I repeat MUST use soapy water... I tried for about 1 hour without using the soapy water... thinking I could just force it through, no way. Once you soap it up it just glides through.
Another tricky thing is the actual threading the sanke through the door. I used bottle nose pliers to push the zip tie through. I grabbed the zip tie less then 1 inch from where it enters the tubing and pushed, then repeated the same thing over and over till I could see it from inside the door. Which by the way, I went from inside the car to the door.
Once through, I simply cut off the zip tie ( I had so many I didn't want to waste my time removing the tape and untangling the wire. ).
[QUOTE]I've spent the last two hours sitting in my parked S2000 listening to some new cds at various volumes and with various settings.
I really should be working, since I am at work... but Let me answer what I can.
The Honda wire is very thin... it may be techincally 16-gauge, but the monster cable had both more strands of copper (I didn't count but it was about twice as thick), and WAY more insulation. The insulation on the monster cable was as thick as some cheap 12-gauge I've seen.
The zip ties are black plastics ones I found at radio shack, they are about 2 or more feet long, just enough to snake through the door.
I stripped one wire, tied it to the hole in the zip tie, then ran electrical tape around the whole thing to make it smooth. However, you MUST I repeat MUST use soapy water... I tried for about 1 hour without using the soapy water... thinking I could just force it through, no way. Once you soap it up it just glides through.
Another tricky thing is the actual threading the sanke through the door. I used bottle nose pliers to push the zip tie through. I grabbed the zip tie less then 1 inch from where it enters the tubing and pushed, then repeated the same thing over and over till I could see it from inside the door. Which by the way, I went from inside the car to the door.
Once through, I simply cut off the zip tie ( I had so many I didn't want to waste my time removing the tape and untangling the wire. ).
[QUOTE]I've spent the last two hours sitting in my parked S2000 listening to some new cds at various volumes and with various settings.
06-12-2001, 10:21 AM
#27
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goldtrom
[B]Pinky:
Thank you for returning to the discssion.
[B]Pinky:
Thank you for returning to the discssion.
06-12-2001, 11:02 AM
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Hmmm, Goldtrom, I think
...too many notes...
Hmmm...self-proclaimed experts, the both of you? Now somehow that, coupled with The Power of Moderation, allows the dynamic duo to rewrite the laws of physics?
How again do you get four ohms of resistance by wiring two four ohm circuits in parallel?
One clearly has a lot to say, the other obviously choses his words carefully. I could get by with less from the former and more from the latter. 
Jeez, every time I start to build a circuit diagram in my head, a silly monkey jumps across the page!
...too many notes...
Originally posted by Utah S2K
Oh forgot to mention.....Pinky does do this for a living, and oh by the way is the Moderator of this Forum because of his expertise in audio electronics. I myself design flight controls for airplanes for a living and am very familiar with electronics too..........
Oh forgot to mention.....Pinky does do this for a living, and oh by the way is the Moderator of this Forum because of his expertise in audio electronics. I myself design flight controls for airplanes for a living and am very familiar with electronics too..........
How again do you get four ohms of resistance by wiring two four ohm circuits in parallel?
Originally posted by Utah S2K
Goldtrom 3,000 posts vs. 47.
Goldtrom 3,000 posts vs. 47.
One clearly has a lot to say, the other obviously choses his words carefully. I could get by with less from the former and more from the latter. Jeez, every time I start to build a circuit diagram in my head, a silly monkey jumps across the page!
06-12-2001, 11:32 AM
#29
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by LATEOTT
[B]Hmmm, Goldtrom, I think
[B]Hmmm, Goldtrom, I think
06-12-2001, 03:22 PM
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Pinky:
Fine, you are the man! You did it without soapy water...
I could not do it... Not a chance in hell. I pulled as hard as I dared and the wire would not budge. Then I added a little soapy water not a lot.. just soaked my hand and rand it over the wire. Bamb!! the thing slid through with NO effort. I didn't have to tug and possibly break something else, nopser it just went right through.
Now the question is, why would you NOT want to use soapy water? Is it corrosive to rubber? I surly hope not. My stereo and everything else in my door is working perfectly, several days after the install... I doubt the soapy water had any effect on anything. Just make sure the soap you use does't have some huge warning "may be corrosive to rubber or plastic".
Once I buy my amp, I will yet a gain need to open up my doors. If no one has measured the impedence by then, I will buy a multi-meter and check it myself.
I assumed kenwood designed these speakers to be bi-amp driven and therefore each speaker should be a 4 ohm load (8 ohms doesnt ever make sense, at least not to me). I believe the parallel wiring was an after thought (or at least not a primary concern), and figure anyone who uses these could afford a 2 Ohm stereo stable amp... which I believe all the kenwood excelon amps are.
Don't have time to write anymore right now... Later folks!
-- Robert
Umm.....I have done now 2 S2000's with running wires into the doors with no soapy water!
I could not do it... Not a chance in hell. I pulled as hard as I dared and the wire would not budge. Then I added a little soapy water not a lot.. just soaked my hand and rand it over the wire. Bamb!! the thing slid through with NO effort. I didn't have to tug and possibly break something else, nopser it just went right through.
Now the question is, why would you NOT want to use soapy water? Is it corrosive to rubber? I surly hope not. My stereo and everything else in my door is working perfectly, several days after the install... I doubt the soapy water had any effect on anything. Just make sure the soap you use does't have some huge warning "may be corrosive to rubber or plastic".
Once I buy my amp, I will yet a gain need to open up my doors. If no one has measured the impedence by then, I will buy a multi-meter and check it myself.
I assumed kenwood designed these speakers to be bi-amp driven and therefore each speaker should be a 4 ohm load (8 ohms doesnt ever make sense, at least not to me). I believe the parallel wiring was an after thought (or at least not a primary concern), and figure anyone who uses these could afford a 2 Ohm stereo stable amp... which I believe all the kenwood excelon amps are.
Don't have time to write anymore right now... Later folks!
-- Robert