Your expert installer is a tool

I switched from a passive to active system on Diamond Hexes (a popular, highly recommended set), not even high quality speakers - and the sound difference was palpable.

The ability of the amplifier to properly dampen each speaker makes a difference. A huge difference.


The S2000 is not so noisy that sound quality is a waste of time. Too bad you're not close to the NY area so I can take you for a ride on the highway with the top down and you can see just how much sound quality can be achieved



ETA: Keep in mind that by running active, we aren't limited to car audio speakers - which are rarely designed for true SQ (kids don't want SQ, they want to "hear their speakers" as it were). I currently run home audio speakers (SEAS tweeters, ScanSpeak Revelator woofers) in my car - and spent maybe $500 on the set. I guarantee they blow away any $500 set of car audio speakers in SQ.

Let's put it this way: The frequency response of my speakers is so flat that the only EQ adjustment I've made was to lower the 1.6-2.5kHz range (which coincides with the xover ranges of the speakers). I could just as easily have adjusted the xovers for the same effect.

Running active also allows proper staging of speakers. And, again, if your installer believes it doesn't make a difference in the noisy environment of an S...he'd be mistaken

 

Not to derail, but this is all very interesting to me. I was curious about how to use a set of tweeters (like the seas) and a set of woofers (like the scanspeak or daytons) in a car. I was mostly concerned with "do I have to build a crossover with these" I am familiar with them only from messing around with building my own speakers for my computer to run off a low power amp. I think I have a decently firm notion on how to wire them from reading all this. Not enough of course. It leaves me with more questions. What kind of control do I need on the amp? Is there anything special I need to look at when picking up a HU? I feel as though this has opened a whole new can of worms. Is there a good place to go on this?

 

honestly there really isnt any down side to running full active, other than loosing rear fill which is already non existent in the S. im also running the P880PRS in my 240sx and it made a huge difference when i switched from passive to full active. most notably i was able to achieve higher clarity and volume but more importantly i could fine tune and adjust each individual speaker on the fly. like if the highs where too bright i could attenuate just the tweeter. the P880PRS is probably the best affordable SQ HU available, but to truly use it to its full potential you need to switch it to network mode to unlock the bandpass crossover. this is the probably main feature to look for when running full active other than the fine tunability of the crossover.

 

Ahhh, yes, the infamous "rear fill".

Have any of you guys ever been to a concert where there were speakers behind the audience for this mysterious "rear fill"?

How about a recording studio that records in anything other than stereo (ya know, L/R channels)?


I've always advocated taking the money and time spent on "rear fill" and investing it into a better 4-chan amp and higher quality door speakers. $700 between the amp and door speakers (rather than a cheap $300 amp, $250-300 components, $100 rear fill speakers), and you won't feel you need rear fill to increase the volume/clarity.

 

wow... been over six months since the last "interesting" thread popped up in the electronics section...

most installers do not know about circuits, and those that do rarely play with active setups. Most of the installers that play with active setups are the ones that compete in SQ competitions, not the ones that sit in a shop

aside from all the benefits NS spoke of (and of course all the facts are correct), additional benefits from active setup include:

1. Time alignment of each individual driver(speaker), thus cleaner sound to the listener
2. Less phase cancellation issues due to distance between drivers by independent time alignment
3. Some people think this is crazy, but most audiophiles do this. Run different speaker wire material for different frequency regions. (I just love silver plated wires for tweets bite me!)
4. Better transient response by allowing shorter and cleaner signal paths

 

Don't get me started on rear fill - that's one area where we definitely agree.

All the rest of the above is very interesting, but the one thing not mentioned at all is the "room" which as "any fule no" has a massive effect on sound quality.

Windows or roof up or down makes huge changes in frequency responses and consequently affects sound quality massively.

Don't forget that my system has the benefit of the excellent Alpine Imprint system, which fixes much of "problems" that the S2000 has (things like the nasty peak around 1kHz which is present in all S2000s with standard speaker placements - it doesn't matter what tweeters are being used).

I have a similar problem in my home system which consists of Krell amplification and B&W Nautilus 805 Signature speakers allied to a Velodyne DD12 subwoofer. The room has a very strong resonance at 37Hz which means a lots of boom is present - fortunately this is cured by my pre-amp and subwoofer, both of which have Room EQ built in.

I'd bet that running the auto-EQ/time alignment system on the Pioneer will produce far more benefit than running active.

I also think that for most people, using crossovers is a better bet than going full active, as it's far more likely to be set up incorrectly.

My next door neighbour bought and S2000 on my recommendation and went full active with a top end Pioneer HU (one of the ones with no internal amplifiers etc) some very expensive amplification and his system sounded nowhere near as good as mine does. Go figure...

I do think josser should take NS up on the offer as it can't hurt, but it'd be really interesting to try the straightforward bi-amped arrangement first, and then try a full active, just to see if there's as big a benefit as is claimed.

 

but you forgot that the Imprint can also tune a fully active system, and even help you determine the best crossover point (remember the 2way/3way switch on PXA-H100? ) Also, most high end home receivers do offer auto EQ/TA for active setups as well.

And yes, an active system without proper equalization and time alignment cannot beat a properly tuned passive system, but a properly tuned active system is always better than a properly tuned passive system

Many home audio towers have this slanted design on the tower, these designs are not just for "looks", they are actually using that slope to minimize cancellation issues and stuff.

 

god, looking at that amp recc thread just reminded me why I didn't feel like posting for the last six months....

 

You're up early

I didn't forget but I don't have a PXA-H100 either (9887R which also has the switch )

I think I've just become a bit sceptical about the whole Hifi game over the last 20+ years of messing about with it in both home and professional systems. I've spent stupid amounts of money in the past on stuff like cabling, racks and so on, and once one has got past the purchase justification stage, one begins to realise that a lot of it is a load of BS.

For example above, NS talks about recording studios, most of which use generic cabling, not fancy stuff made from unobtanium as recommended by Hifi magazines.

All the pro systems I've used have relied on EQ of some sort in order to fix the listening environment (as well as acoustic treatments). These are simply more sophisticated versions of the Imprint and equivalent systems in head units.

My hunch is that the excellent purpose-built crossovers supplied by Alpine with the SPX-177Rs will do a better job of crossing over than the processor in a relatively low cost head unit.

But, if josser's going to get the job done for coffee and cake by NS, then he should go for it.

Man, I'm turning into a grumpy old git

 

not up early, stupid insomnia wants a reunion party, lol...

been a while, forgot you are using the 9887R

cabling is a game of $$, but I do think it makes a difference. But, difference vs price is another question I believe there are only a handful of studios around the world that record Jazz and Classicals with really exotic equipments, and most of my favorites came from those places. What are they using? I have no idea, lol~

the crossovers that come with the X series are no doubt superior in their capabilities for their price, but they are more like band aids than specific solutions.

yes, he should definitely let NS hook him up

hey, compared to most of those new s2k owners, I'm a grumpy old git as well