any cons w/hondata flashpro?
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Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Israel
you can connect external WBO2 in a way that Flashpro will log its data.
but its input never will be used by the car's ECU.
so it's just for logging and making sure that stock sensor is not lying.
but its input never will be used by the car's ECU.
so it's just for logging and making sure that stock sensor is not lying.
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Originally Posted by gernby' timestamp='1325600439' post='21281022
The '06+ S2000 does have a wideband primary O2 sensor, and it works well. I disagree with everything said above on that topic.
http://www.hondata.c...ro/features.htm
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From: R.C.
I can assure you I did not misread the page CAT uses a aux wideband inserted into the exhaust of every car not equipped that he tunes with Hondata or most other types I believe. So I have seen this in practice - But below I reposted Hondata own article about why you need open loop wide band tuning - even the most flippant remark on them I have heard is they are only necessary for fuel mileage, well if your mileage is suffering you are wasting fuel that could be making hp otherwise. Which is the basic premise for most tuning. While open loop is not critical for the s2000 not having the ability is a major drawback which is the point of this thread.
Wideband tuning - Introduction
Why use a wideband? Full throttle tuning only tunes 1/5th to 1/6th of the available map area. Part throttle where you spend most of your driving time and is the most common area for complaints. (poor fuel economy, roughness, stumbling) Very few dynos are capable holding a constant load for part throttle tuning. Dynos do not accurately represent real world conditions like under-hood airflow at speed and RAM air effects. Typically you car will run leaner off the dyno than on by about 3/10ths of a point.
If you are running closed loop and your part throttle fuelling is incorrect, your full throttle fuelling will be affected. (see closed loop). Another good reason to tune part throttle correctly.
Using a wideband in on road conditions will enable more accurate fuel tuning. This does not replace dyno tuning, but augments it.
Hondata has had extensive tuning time with two wideband lambda meters, the PLX and the FJO. Most wideband meters - (the ones that are of any use in tuning here) have a 0-5 volt output proportional to air fuel ratio. That output is fed back into the O2 sensor wiring where ROM Editor or HondaLogger convert it back into a precise air fuel ratio. The stock O2 sensor is very inaccurate for anything other than 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. (image courtesy of FJO)
Why use a wideband? Full throttle tuning only tunes 1/5th to 1/6th of the available map area. Part throttle where you spend most of your driving time and is the most common area for complaints. (poor fuel economy, roughness, stumbling) Very few dynos are capable holding a constant load for part throttle tuning. Dynos do not accurately represent real world conditions like under-hood airflow at speed and RAM air effects. Typically you car will run leaner off the dyno than on by about 3/10ths of a point.
If you are running closed loop and your part throttle fuelling is incorrect, your full throttle fuelling will be affected. (see closed loop). Another good reason to tune part throttle correctly.
Using a wideband in on road conditions will enable more accurate fuel tuning. This does not replace dyno tuning, but augments it.
Hondata has had extensive tuning time with two wideband lambda meters, the PLX and the FJO. Most wideband meters - (the ones that are of any use in tuning here) have a 0-5 volt output proportional to air fuel ratio. That output is fed back into the O2 sensor wiring where ROM Editor or HondaLogger convert it back into a precise air fuel ratio. The stock O2 sensor is very inaccurate for anything other than 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. (image courtesy of FJO)
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I can assure you I did not misread the page CAT uses a aux wideband inserted into the exhaust of every car not equipped that he tunes with Hondata or most other types I believe. So I have seen this in practice - But below I reposted Hondata own article about why you need open loop wide band tuning - even the most flippant remark on them I have heard is they are only necessary for fuel mileage, well if your mileage is suffering you are wasting fuel that could be making hp otherwise. Which is the basic premise for most tuning. While open loop is not critical for the s2000 not having the ability is a major drawback which is the point of this thread.
Wideband tuning - Introduction
Why use a wideband? Full throttle tuning only tunes 1/5th to 1/6th of the available map area. Part throttle where you spend most of your driving time and is the most common area for complaints. (poor fuel economy, roughness, stumbling) Very few dynos are capable holding a constant load for part throttle tuning. Dynos do not accurately represent real world conditions like under-hood airflow at speed and RAM air effects. Typically you car will run leaner off the dyno than on by about 3/10ths of a point.
If you are running closed loop and your part throttle fuelling is incorrect, your full throttle fuelling will be affected. (see closed loop). Another good reason to tune part throttle correctly.
Using a wideband in on road conditions will enable more accurate fuel tuning. This does not replace dyno tuning, but augments it.
Hondata has had extensive tuning time with two wideband lambda meters, the PLX and the FJO. Most wideband meters - (the ones that are of any use in tuning here) have a 0-5 volt output proportional to air fuel ratio. That output is fed back into the O2 sensor wiring where ROM Editor or HondaLogger convert it back into a precise air fuel ratio. The stock O2 sensor is very inaccurate for anything other than 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. (image courtesy of FJO)
Why use a wideband? Full throttle tuning only tunes 1/5th to 1/6th of the available map area. Part throttle where you spend most of your driving time and is the most common area for complaints. (poor fuel economy, roughness, stumbling) Very few dynos are capable holding a constant load for part throttle tuning. Dynos do not accurately represent real world conditions like under-hood airflow at speed and RAM air effects. Typically you car will run leaner off the dyno than on by about 3/10ths of a point.
If you are running closed loop and your part throttle fuelling is incorrect, your full throttle fuelling will be affected. (see closed loop). Another good reason to tune part throttle correctly.
Using a wideband in on road conditions will enable more accurate fuel tuning. This does not replace dyno tuning, but augments it.
Hondata has had extensive tuning time with two wideband lambda meters, the PLX and the FJO. Most wideband meters - (the ones that are of any use in tuning here) have a 0-5 volt output proportional to air fuel ratio. That output is fed back into the O2 sensor wiring where ROM Editor or HondaLogger convert it back into a precise air fuel ratio. The stock O2 sensor is very inaccurate for anything other than 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. (image courtesy of FJO)
I don't know how much more clear I can be about this. All '06+ AP2's have wideband O2 sensors from the factory in the primary O2 bung. They ARE WIDEBAND! Nothing you've said about this subject is applicable to the FlashPro.
Here is a screen shot showing a datalog of my aftermarket Wideband O2 (Innovate LM-1) along with a FlashPro datalog of my OEM wideband.
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Guys (other than Dick Togo) -
Anyone who says the FlashPro doesn't support wideband O2 input during open OR closed loop just doesn't know what they're talking about. Anyone who says the FlashPro doesn't support datalogging of an external aftermarket O2 input doesn't know what they're talking about.
The FlashPro not only uses the factory wideband primary O2 to maintain the target AFR at part throttle (closed loop), but it can also be setup to use the primary O2 at WOT to target the "WOT lambda adjust" values by applying STFT values (closed loop). If you want your AFR to be at 13.5 at full throttle at 3500 RPMs, you can force it to do that with STFTs. Here's a thread I created about it.
http://www.hondata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13211
The FlashPro also allows you to use the factory wideband primary O2 to target richer or leaner part throttle AFR's. For example, if you want to run 15.5:1 while cruising on the highway in order to get better gas mileage, you can do that.
The FlashPro also allows you to use the factory wideband primary O2 to autotune the fuel maps while you drive.
While the OEM wideband primary O2 sensor may not be as good as some aftermarket widebands, I'm not aware of ANYTHING that the FlashPro won't let you do with it that other ECU's will do.
Anyone who says the FlashPro doesn't support wideband O2 input during open OR closed loop just doesn't know what they're talking about. Anyone who says the FlashPro doesn't support datalogging of an external aftermarket O2 input doesn't know what they're talking about.
The FlashPro not only uses the factory wideband primary O2 to maintain the target AFR at part throttle (closed loop), but it can also be setup to use the primary O2 at WOT to target the "WOT lambda adjust" values by applying STFT values (closed loop). If you want your AFR to be at 13.5 at full throttle at 3500 RPMs, you can force it to do that with STFTs. Here's a thread I created about it.
http://www.hondata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13211
The FlashPro also allows you to use the factory wideband primary O2 to target richer or leaner part throttle AFR's. For example, if you want to run 15.5:1 while cruising on the highway in order to get better gas mileage, you can do that.
The FlashPro also allows you to use the factory wideband primary O2 to autotune the fuel maps while you drive.
While the OEM wideband primary O2 sensor may not be as good as some aftermarket widebands, I'm not aware of ANYTHING that the FlashPro won't let you do with it that other ECU's will do.
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I just went back through the thread to see why Togo keeps mentioning open loop. I'm still boggled by his persistence, since open loop is the simplest implimentation of a wideband, and the FlashPro absolutely allows the use of the factory wideband primary O2 and also an aftermarket wideband O2 input at the same time for open loop tuning.
