Flashpro fuel and timing maps
12-09-2009, 09:02 AM
#1
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Flashpro fuel and timing maps
I've been really curious why all the NA calibrations I've looked at for the FlashPro have seemingly random gaps from one RPM point to another, and many of them are outside the usable RPM range.
For example, the high speed fuel table has rows at the following RPM points:
1100, 2000, 3100, 4300, 5000, 5500, 5900, 6200, 6400, 6700, 7000, 7500, 7800, 8000, 8200, 8400, 8500, 8800, 9000, 9500
The deltas between these points seem all over the place:
____, 0900, 1100, 1200, 0700, 0500, 0400, 0300, 0200, 0300, 0300, 0500, 0300, 0200, 0200, 0200, 0100, 0300, 0200, 0500
Since the high speed map is only used for VTEC, and most NA S2000's won't use VTEC below 4K RPMs, the first 3 rows seem wasted. Similarly, since most F22C's won't be running over 8500 RPMs, the last 3 rows seem wasted. Would it not make more sense to reallocate the RPM points to be whatever is actually used? For example, set the lowest RPM point at or slightly below the VTEC engagement window, then set the max RPM at or slightly above the rev limit, then evenly distribute the remaining points between?
In my case, 5300 RPMs seems to be about as low as I can engage VTEC without power loss, so it seems like 5200 RPMs should be my lowest RPM point. If I set every RPM point after that 175 RPMs apart, I'll get an even distribution all the way up to 8525 RPMs. Wouldn't that allow me to create a smoother fuel curve?
For example, the high speed fuel table has rows at the following RPM points:
1100, 2000, 3100, 4300, 5000, 5500, 5900, 6200, 6400, 6700, 7000, 7500, 7800, 8000, 8200, 8400, 8500, 8800, 9000, 9500
The deltas between these points seem all over the place:
____, 0900, 1100, 1200, 0700, 0500, 0400, 0300, 0200, 0300, 0300, 0500, 0300, 0200, 0200, 0200, 0100, 0300, 0200, 0500
Since the high speed map is only used for VTEC, and most NA S2000's won't use VTEC below 4K RPMs, the first 3 rows seem wasted. Similarly, since most F22C's won't be running over 8500 RPMs, the last 3 rows seem wasted. Would it not make more sense to reallocate the RPM points to be whatever is actually used? For example, set the lowest RPM point at or slightly below the VTEC engagement window, then set the max RPM at or slightly above the rev limit, then evenly distribute the remaining points between?
In my case, 5300 RPMs seems to be about as low as I can engage VTEC without power loss, so it seems like 5200 RPMs should be my lowest RPM point. If I set every RPM point after that 175 RPMs apart, I'll get an even distribution all the way up to 8525 RPMs. Wouldn't that allow me to create a smoother fuel curve?
12-09-2009, 09:10 AM
#2
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Oops ... now I see that I can insert more RPM points. Does anyone know what the max number of rows is? Any thoughts about the pros / cons of adding more points in order to achieve a smoother AFR curve?
12-09-2009, 09:21 AM
#3
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I should have played around with the software more before posting this thread ... sorry.
It looks like there are a fixed number or rows, so inserting a new row winds up pushing the last row off the chart. Deleting an existing row causes a new row to appear 500 RPMs higher than the last row.
It looks like there are a fixed number or rows, so inserting a new row winds up pushing the last row off the chart. Deleting an existing row causes a new row to appear 500 RPMs higher than the last row.
12-09-2009, 05:48 PM
#4
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Okay ... so I'm surprised nobody has replied to this thread, but I've spent MANY hours working on this today.
It has worked VERY nicely to do just what I've mentioned above. I have reallocated all the unused RPM points for areas that are actually used in the fuel maps, and have concentrated the new points on areas that have "spikey" AFR's. The result is that my AFR's are now much more flat, and the fuel curves are more "rounded" instead of spikey.
However, after I typed the paragraph above, I realized that I should look at my timing graph. I now realize that the timing RPM points follow the fuel RPM points. I now need to see what I might have done to F-up my timing maps ...
On another note, I think Hondata's "AF Corrected" value is off the charts lean (resulting in an off the chart's rich fuel correction suggestion). My S2000 only has 1 significant mod, and that is a PWJDM intake. However, the FlashPro's AF Corrected values show that I'm running VERY lean even with the stock tune.
When I had my '02 S2000 with more mods (AEM V1 and TP), it ran VERY rich with a stock tune. I had to lean it out very much in order to get any more power out of it. Did Honda change their tuning strategy, or did Hondata miscalculate the "AF Corrected" value?!?!
I'm still planning to have another bung welded in so that I can install my LM-1 to validate the AFR's....
EliteTuning ... I still want to send you my datalogs, but I'm changing way too much way too fast at the moment.
It has worked VERY nicely to do just what I've mentioned above. I have reallocated all the unused RPM points for areas that are actually used in the fuel maps, and have concentrated the new points on areas that have "spikey" AFR's. The result is that my AFR's are now much more flat, and the fuel curves are more "rounded" instead of spikey.
However, after I typed the paragraph above, I realized that I should look at my timing graph. I now realize that the timing RPM points follow the fuel RPM points. I now need to see what I might have done to F-up my timing maps ...
On another note, I think Hondata's "AF Corrected" value is off the charts lean (resulting in an off the chart's rich fuel correction suggestion). My S2000 only has 1 significant mod, and that is a PWJDM intake. However, the FlashPro's AF Corrected values show that I'm running VERY lean even with the stock tune.
When I had my '02 S2000 with more mods (AEM V1 and TP), it ran VERY rich with a stock tune. I had to lean it out very much in order to get any more power out of it. Did Honda change their tuning strategy, or did Hondata miscalculate the "AF Corrected" value?!?!
I'm still planning to have another bung welded in so that I can install my LM-1 to validate the AFR's....
EliteTuning ... I still want to send you my datalogs, but I'm changing way too much way too fast at the moment.
12-09-2009, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gernby,Dec 9 2009, 10:21 AM
I should have played around with the software more before posting this thread ... sorry.
It looks like there are a fixed number or rows, so inserting a new row winds up pushing the last row off the chart. Deleting an existing row causes a new row to appear 500 RPMs higher than the last row.
It looks like there are a fixed number or rows, so inserting a new row winds up pushing the last row off the chart. Deleting an existing row causes a new row to appear 500 RPMs higher than the last row.
12-09-2009, 06:29 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by AMS MIKE,Dec 9 2009, 09:11 PM
you answered your own question and all of this is in the Hondata HELP file/manual.
I'm still curious why Hondata's own "tuned" calibrations use the same RPM set poins as the stock tune. After today's experiments, it seems that taking advantage of those unused RPM points really does help a LOT!
I am still wanting to know if anyone can come up with reasons why I should NOT change the RPM set points like Hondata didn't.
12-09-2009, 06:37 PM
#7
Former Moderator
I was wondering the same thing about the fuel map but you're way past me 
I need to do so much more reading. Changing vtec changes everything, changing the fuel curve I think requires a timing change and I'm not ready for that just yet as well as many other things.
I might try and play around with it tonight.
I need to do so much more reading. Changing vtec changes everything, changing the fuel curve I think requires a timing change and I'm not ready for that just yet as well as many other things.
I might try and play around with it tonight.
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12-09-2009, 07:03 PM
#8
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Since most piggy-backs ONLY allow fuel tuning, I think it's safe to say that you don't HAVE TO adjust the ignition.
My current calibration is the "tuned" calibration for the stock S2000, and have left the ignition maps untouched.
My current calibration is the "tuned" calibration for the stock S2000, and have left the ignition maps untouched.
12-09-2009, 07:55 PM
#9
Former Moderator
I guess I just got a bit confused when I saw the ignition map following the fuel map. I'm also running the tuned map with some minor changes.
RPM limit 8400 for in and out
The secondary O2 cat delete checkbox unchecked
and I think that's it, I've driven it around with my notebook connected just to make sure it wasn't too rich or lean.
RPM limit 8400 for in and out
The secondary O2 cat delete checkbox unchecked
and I think that's it, I've driven it around with my notebook connected just to make sure it wasn't too rich or lean.
12-10-2009, 08:55 AM
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Every car will be a little different. If you look at the AEM and Injen cold air intake calibrations you will find additional RPM points inserted to allow more precise fuel tuning where these intakes resonate.
For example the Injen intake has a positive resonance (goes very lean) at 3800 RPM and the AEM at 4800 rpm.
By all means remove some tuning points below your VTEC point. The Toda Header reflash has a VTEC point of 4100. The next tuning point below this should be about 1000 rpm below this, as there are circumstances on deceleration where the car will stay on the high cam at lower RPMs than the VTEC point for a couple of seconds
For example the Injen intake has a positive resonance (goes very lean) at 3800 RPM and the AEM at 4800 rpm.
By all means remove some tuning points below your VTEC point. The Toda Header reflash has a VTEC point of 4100. The next tuning point below this should be about 1000 rpm below this, as there are circumstances on deceleration where the car will stay on the high cam at lower RPMs than the VTEC point for a couple of seconds