No drop in HP with less timing? Supercharged Ap2 Dyno
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No drop in HP with less timing? Supercharged Ap2 Dyno
Ive been supercharged for 2 years in my AP2. My mods:
2006 AP2
Vortech V3 Sci 4.5" pulley (~8.5 psi)
Flashpro
Upgraded bigger watercooler with bigger pump
AEM Water Meth 50/50
Berk test pipe and header
Stock Exhaust
Made 371whp, e-tuned (wont mention the tuner at the moment but awesome job) . No problems what so ever over the years. Soon after getting tuned I made an optional exact tune but with 3 degrees less timing from 6k-8.5k rpms and a little more fuel just to be safe when going to track days or if my water/meth injection ever broke down. I then added a T1r sparrow evasive dual exhaust. I decided to take the car to the dyno last week to see how much HP that optional tune made with less timing + fuel and also see if the exhaust helped or not. I was surprised at the outcome. 1st pass, same original calibration the car made 5+ hp, though the peak HP was less because my supercharger belt started slipping after 8k rpms and only hit 7 psi instead 8psi (saw datalogs). 2nd pass, loaded optional calibration, 3 less degrees of ignition and more fuel, SAME NUMBERS!?? Here are my graphs:
Blue line Original Dyno (2 years ago) Stock exhaust 24 degrees of timing 8k rpms.
Red line same calibration as original but with T1R Dual exhaust.
Green line -3 degrees of timing over 6k-8.5k rpms and more fuel, with T1R Dual exhaust. (A/F ratio says 11.97, not 11.07)
Discarding what happens after 8k rpms where the belt starts to slip and I loose peak hp my understanding from this is:
I had too much timing before, was not actually giving me more hp, thats why decreasing it didn't put out less hp.?
The exhaust is barely giving me 5hp and torque over the range, Not worth it considering the noise and drone in my opinion.
A/F as long as its within the parameters for FI 12.5-11.9 didn't affect whp.
Maybe Im reading my total timing wrong? On the flashpro tables it states 23 degrees, but on the knock limit tables it say 18 degrees. No knock was detected on either run so It should be using the original parameters correct? Im happy that my car is still running strong but now Im confused if I should only run with the less timing. Will maybe using race fuel help gains on the original calibration even though the car is not knocking? Any thoughts/advice on this?
Thanks in advance.
2006 AP2
Vortech V3 Sci 4.5" pulley (~8.5 psi)
Flashpro
Upgraded bigger watercooler with bigger pump
AEM Water Meth 50/50
Berk test pipe and header
Stock Exhaust
Made 371whp, e-tuned (wont mention the tuner at the moment but awesome job) . No problems what so ever over the years. Soon after getting tuned I made an optional exact tune but with 3 degrees less timing from 6k-8.5k rpms and a little more fuel just to be safe when going to track days or if my water/meth injection ever broke down. I then added a T1r sparrow evasive dual exhaust. I decided to take the car to the dyno last week to see how much HP that optional tune made with less timing + fuel and also see if the exhaust helped or not. I was surprised at the outcome. 1st pass, same original calibration the car made 5+ hp, though the peak HP was less because my supercharger belt started slipping after 8k rpms and only hit 7 psi instead 8psi (saw datalogs). 2nd pass, loaded optional calibration, 3 less degrees of ignition and more fuel, SAME NUMBERS!?? Here are my graphs:
Blue line Original Dyno (2 years ago) Stock exhaust 24 degrees of timing 8k rpms.
Red line same calibration as original but with T1R Dual exhaust.
Green line -3 degrees of timing over 6k-8.5k rpms and more fuel, with T1R Dual exhaust. (A/F ratio says 11.97, not 11.07)
Discarding what happens after 8k rpms where the belt starts to slip and I loose peak hp my understanding from this is:
I had too much timing before, was not actually giving me more hp, thats why decreasing it didn't put out less hp.?
The exhaust is barely giving me 5hp and torque over the range, Not worth it considering the noise and drone in my opinion.
A/F as long as its within the parameters for FI 12.5-11.9 didn't affect whp.
Maybe Im reading my total timing wrong? On the flashpro tables it states 23 degrees, but on the knock limit tables it say 18 degrees. No knock was detected on either run so It should be using the original parameters correct? Im happy that my car is still running strong but now Im confused if I should only run with the less timing. Will maybe using race fuel help gains on the original calibration even though the car is not knocking? Any thoughts/advice on this?
Thanks in advance.
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I agree, you may have had too much timing, however one other possibility is the exhaust you put on did offer you decent gains offsetting your 3 degrees of timing retard. If you put on the exhaust and then added fuel and your afr is now the same as it was before then that tells me the exhaust breaths better. You exactly offset that 3 degrees of timing and old exhaust by a better breathing exhaust to where you could add more fuel so it became a wash. Either way, you’re running a little safer now.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost
Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost
Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 74
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I agree, you may have had too much timing, however one other possibility is the exhaust you put on did offer you decent gains offsetting your 3 degrees of timing retard. If you put on the exhaust and then added fuel and your afr is now the same as it was before then that tells me the exhaust breaths better. You exactly offset that 3 degrees of timing and old exhaust by a better breathing exhaust to where you could add more fuel so it became a wash. Either way, you’re running a little safer now.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost
Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.Im really considering running the 4" pulley in my setup but Im hesitant since the car is running so reliable. I really don't want to hurt the life span on that V3 blower and my engine.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
Originally Posted by s2000Junky' timestamp='1395085573' post='23067108
I agree, you may have had too much timing, however one other possibility is the exhaust you put on did offer you decent gains offsetting your 3 degrees of timing retard. If you put on the exhaust and then added fuel and your afr is now the same as it was before then that tells me the exhaust breaths better. You exactly offset that 3 degrees of timing and old exhaust by a better breathing exhaust to where you could add more fuel so it became a wash. Either way, you’re running a little safer now.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost
Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.Im really considering running the 4" pulley in my setup but Im hesitant since the car is running so reliable. I really don't want to hurt the life span on that V3 blower and my engine.
If your fuel map resolution isn't super finite running proper fuel in every single block which hardly any tuner will take the time to do, the map will typically fall into the next fuel cell when rpm is same but boost lower from slip and then car will run rich. On a non ecu supercharged car like the base kits where just a mechanical fuel enrichment is done through a rising rate for, the car always goes richer when the belt slips.
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Originally Posted by cariza' timestamp='1395087407' post='23067180
[quote name='s2000Junky' timestamp='1395085573' post='23067108']
I agree, you may have had too much timing, however one other possibility is the exhaust you put on did offer you decent gains offsetting your 3 degrees of timing retard. If you put on the exhaust and then added fuel and your afr is now the same as it was before then that tells me the exhaust breaths better. You exactly offset that 3 degrees of timing and old exhaust by a better breathing exhaust to where you could add more fuel so it became a wash. Either way, you’re running a little safer now.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.
I agree, you may have had too much timing, however one other possibility is the exhaust you put on did offer you decent gains offsetting your 3 degrees of timing retard. If you put on the exhaust and then added fuel and your afr is now the same as it was before then that tells me the exhaust breaths better. You exactly offset that 3 degrees of timing and old exhaust by a better breathing exhaust to where you could add more fuel so it became a wash. Either way, you’re running a little safer now.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost
Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.Im really considering running the 4" pulley in my setup but Im hesitant since the car is running so reliable. I really don't want to hurt the life span on that V3 blower and my engine.
If your fuel map resolution isn't super finite running proper fuel in every single block which hardly any tuner will take the time to do, the map will typically fall into the next fuel cell when rpm is same but boost lower from slip and then car will run rich. On a non ecu supercharged car like the base kits where just a mechanical fuel enrichment is done through a rising rate for, the car always goes richer when the belt slips.
[/quote]
True, maybe by the time I added the exhaust the belt had started to slip, that's why it ran richer. Just got worse over time. I may take it again to the dyno now that the belt isnt slipping. I think with the exhaust above 8k rpms I may even find a larger increase in hp. Im really considering running the 4in pulley, get around 2 more psi through out the rev range and just lower the limiter to 8k rpms when I go to track days to keep the boost down. The car really needs more power down low, top end is really nice already.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
Originally Posted by s2000Junky' timestamp='1395108062' post='23067796
[quote name='cariza' timestamp='1395087407' post='23067180']
[quote name='s2000Junky' timestamp='1395085573' post='23067108']
I agree, you may have had too much timing, however one other possibility is the exhaust you put on did offer you decent gains offsetting your 3 degrees of timing retard. If you put on the exhaust and then added fuel and your afr is now the same as it was before then that tells me the exhaust breaths better. You exactly offset that 3 degrees of timing and old exhaust by a better breathing exhaust to where you could add more fuel so it became a wash. Either way, you’re running a little safer now.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.
[quote name='s2000Junky' timestamp='1395085573' post='23067108']
I agree, you may have had too much timing, however one other possibility is the exhaust you put on did offer you decent gains offsetting your 3 degrees of timing retard. If you put on the exhaust and then added fuel and your afr is now the same as it was before then that tells me the exhaust breaths better. You exactly offset that 3 degrees of timing and old exhaust by a better breathing exhaust to where you could add more fuel so it became a wash. Either way, you’re running a little safer now.
But only way to know for sure is to bolt your old exhaust back up on your new tune and see how much you lose if any.
The other thing to is, adding more timing and seeing no gains as well as no detonation means your motor really wants/needs more boost
Water/meth increases your detonation threshold substantially. Your boost amount is barely enough to warrant even a timing correction of the factory timing map in my experience, let alone needing water/meth. But there is something to be said for piece of mind, you can never be too safe running on the track.Im really considering running the 4" pulley in my setup but Im hesitant since the car is running so reliable. I really don't want to hurt the life span on that V3 blower and my engine.
If your fuel map resolution isn't super finite running proper fuel in every single block which hardly any tuner will take the time to do, the map will typically fall into the next fuel cell when rpm is same but boost lower from slip and then car will run rich. On a non ecu supercharged car like the base kits where just a mechanical fuel enrichment is done through a rising rate for, the car always goes richer when the belt slips.
[/quote]
True, maybe by the time I added the exhaust the belt had started to slip, that's why it ran richer. Just got worse over time. I may take it again to the dyno now that the belt isnt slipping. I think with the exhaust above 8k rpms I may even find a larger increase in hp. Im really considering running the 4in pulley, get around 2 more psi through out the rev range and just lower the limiter to 8k rpms when I go to track days to keep the boost down. The car really needs more power down low, top end is really nice already.
[/quote]
you won't get 2psi through the entire rev range, that's not how a centrifugal blower delivers. You will only get it at redline, gradually tapering to where you start to make boost, so really with a supercharger if you want 2psi more down lower where your noticing the lack, you will need two pulleys smaller like a 3.8, netting you about 6psi more at peak.
The blower has a max rpm limit like the motor, as long as you stay within that limit you will be pretty ok, of course spinning anything higher in rpm creates more heat and eventually will take more toll, but its all relative, obviously the blower has an efficiency range and you want to take advantage of it if your carrying around the equipment to do so. I can tell you right now your running an efficient 450whp set up. The pulley your running right now isn't even in the blower efficiency range yet. Add the water/meth kit and you just increased your motors ability to handle what the blower can provide, assuming your tuner isn't inept.
your pulley sizes are different then the kit I run so maybe one of the vortech guys can chime in to confirm, but if I'm not mistaken you could go as low as a 3.8 with 9k rpm and not over spin the blower. This would get you around 15psi at peak and with a good tune with water/meth would be plenty safe with a stock engine. Keep in mind, unlike turbo your only making that high of boost at such a small portion of the powerband (redline) and where the motor is most happy to handle it, your much safer to run this level supercharged vs turbo. At 15psi peak your only averaging about 8psi in the mid range where you spend most your time. keep that in mind.
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If the knock limit table said 18, it doesnt matter what is in the actual map, you wont see more than 18. You can put 20 or 50 in the timing map, but you'll only see 18 if thats what the knock limit table says.
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[EDIT] I think I just answered my own question, but any input is welcome. Hondata's documentation is pretty good...