Emanage ultimate question
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,949
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From: MAHT-O-MEDI
Emanage ultimate question
Hey gang,
Got a question for you. Running emanage ultimate with an SC, map is great, car runs well, but the problemm I have is that when starting the car hot it wants to die unless you keep the pedal down a little or rev several times when it first fires. After about the first fifteen seconds of running it is fine and stays running, its just getting out of the blocks on a startup.
My SC kit comes with an idle adjustment screw on the larger throttle body, but even adustiing it as finely as I can I have a choice between idle at around 1000rpm or 1400rpm. No amount of EXTREMELY fine adjustments will let me bring the idle up a teensy bit to solve the problem.
As one would expect the problem is worse on really hot days and when the AC is on when I start it. I thought the ECU would learn its way out but it has not.
Anything I can do to safely solve the problem? I thought about adding a bit of fuel at 1000 rpm on the map but also heard of an anti stall feature and I don't know how it works.
Any help appreciated.
Got a question for you. Running emanage ultimate with an SC, map is great, car runs well, but the problemm I have is that when starting the car hot it wants to die unless you keep the pedal down a little or rev several times when it first fires. After about the first fifteen seconds of running it is fine and stays running, its just getting out of the blocks on a startup.
My SC kit comes with an idle adjustment screw on the larger throttle body, but even adustiing it as finely as I can I have a choice between idle at around 1000rpm or 1400rpm. No amount of EXTREMELY fine adjustments will let me bring the idle up a teensy bit to solve the problem.
As one would expect the problem is worse on really hot days and when the AC is on when I start it. I thought the ECU would learn its way out but it has not.
Anything I can do to safely solve the problem? I thought about adding a bit of fuel at 1000 rpm on the map but also heard of an anti stall feature and I don't know how it works.
Any help appreciated.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,044
Likes: 6
From: South Florida
you could either adjust....
IACV
fuel in the 0-1000 rpm range at 0psi to -13
timing in the 0-1000 range at 0 psi to -13
iat fuel trim in the air temp range that is the problem.
ect fuel trim in the engine temp that is the problem
or if eman lets you adjust the crank fuel adjustment.
IACV
fuel in the 0-1000 rpm range at 0psi to -13
timing in the 0-1000 range at 0 psi to -13
iat fuel trim in the air temp range that is the problem.
ect fuel trim in the engine temp that is the problem
or if eman lets you adjust the crank fuel adjustment.
Former Moderator
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,677
Likes: 1
From: Mesa
I have the same issue, playing with the anti-stall did little or nothing. I think it is more an issue with the SOT kit design having such a large volume between the TB and the intake. I remember reading something about moving one of the vacuum hoses to a fitting on the exhaust side of the SC helps - you may want to ask Mark about it.
I am switching to a KPRO in the fall and will likely go air to air IC.
I am switching to a KPRO in the fall and will likely go air to air IC.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,300
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Originally Posted by WLAURENT,Jul 8 2010, 08:47 AM
I have the same issue, playing with the anti-stall did little or nothing. I think it is more an issue with the SOT kit design having such a large volume between the TB and the intake. I remember reading something about moving one of the vacuum hoses to a fitting on the exhaust side of the SC helps - you may want to ask Mark about it.
I am switching to a KPRO in the fall and will likely go air to air IC.
I am switching to a KPRO in the fall and will likely go air to air IC.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,044
Likes: 6
From: South Florida
its 100% a tuning issue. i have same kit, on aem ems, thing starts like a champ cold, warm, hot. whether or not it is correctable in eman ult is what i dont know.
air to air huh, i am very curious about this. do you think you will gain power, or just get more consistent results?
i have been thinking about getting the blower ported to raise efficiency.
air to air huh, i am very curious about this. do you think you will gain power, or just get more consistent results?
i have been thinking about getting the blower ported to raise efficiency.
Former Moderator
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,677
Likes: 1
From: Mesa
I am thinking I will get more consistent cooling. Still not completely sold on the idea, but do have an IC sitting in the garage.
Not sure why the E-ULT does this - should not be tweaking anything on start-up or idle other than the injector correction factor.
Not sure why the E-ULT does this - should not be tweaking anything on start-up or idle other than the injector correction factor.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,214
Likes: 32
From: Huntsville, AL
On the relocation of the vacuum line going to the bypass valve move the vacuum line from where it is on the Big TB pre blower to a source on the OEM intake manifold or a port on the blower outlet manifold.
Remember that the moss blower outlet manifold did have a port on it that on the Miata was running directly to the bypass valve. This was necessary on the Miata to solve there idle droop issues they have with the A2A/ larger throttle volume. You may need to put that port back on the manifold if you experience idle droop once you go to an A2A.
Let me know how the A2A setup goes. If there is not a lot of pressure loss and good consistent heat rejection I a may also elect to change my system over. I all about making a system more passive due to less failure modes.
On getting rid of the hot start issue.
It’s a lot easier to explain this over the phone then in words on the forum but I will give it a try.
Camuman is spot on with adjusting the starting/cranking ignition timing when hi IATs are being see during a hot start.
However the ULT was never intended to have the ability to adjust hot cranking timing being that it is a piggeyback; however that does not mean we can’t get it to perform that function just need to be careful.
Here is what I am thinking
The ULT does have Intake temperature based ignition timing and fuel compensation option/maps.
“Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
After a long drive and the motor has had time to heat soak
Hook up the lap top to the ULT and start recording real time the data logs
Turn the key to the run/on position (without starting) for approx 2 mins to ensure that the O2 sensor is warmed up properly before starting the car. ( we want to measure A/F during cranking and the first initial seconds after starting; IATs and hot Ignition timing the stock computer is putting out.
During this time when the O2 Sensor is being heated up before starting look at your real time data logs and note the IATs.
Turn key off for 2 seconds then turn back ( to ensure fuel rail is at full pressure) on click connect real time ( data log should still be recording) verify and then start the car hopefully replicating the issue during hot start so data logs can be reordered.
Take the car out for a drive while still recording your data logs.
After the drive save the data log file and allow the motor to heat soak again
On this startup do not do the 2 min O2 warm up; record a new data log.
The reason we want to get a second set of data logs during cranking is to ensure the that 2 min O2 warm up warm up on the first log did not adversely affect the IATs.
Remember that the A2W IC pump was running during that warm up so the IAT during cranking may have been skewed due to colder water in the IC barrel.
Now that we have a good set of IAT data during start up and during normal driving
We need to verify that the IATs experienced during hot start up are not seen at any other time.
The hope is the hot start IATs will be higher than you would ever experience during normal running conditions.
If not then any adjustment we make for hot start will also be applied at any other time that specific IAT is seen.
Now this may not be a problem as it may also fix the heat bog some owners get when starting from a stop ( be it FI or NA) but the adjustments we are going to make may or may make that condition better and possible even worse.
We are intending to only adjust cranking values that are relatively constant inside the stock ecu for given starting conditions however the condition of heat bog start are dynamic as the stock ecu is in closed loop during that time; and the adjustments made in the ULT will be applied globally any time a specific IAT is seen.
Activate the Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
And set your temp scale appropriately for the IATs experienced during hot start.
NOTE TEMP in the Greddy must be set to C for A/F feedback to work
So say you are seeing 194F ( 90C)
You would set your Temp scale to be
0,5,10,15,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,84,85,90,95,110
I am only going to focus on the area in bold as this is the assumed critical area based on a theoretical 90C IAT during hot start
Note how the temp under 90C goes 85 then 84.
The Greddy ULT interpolates between values so if there need to be a hard cut off having two values close together will accomplish this e.g. 85/84.
Then you can make ign/fule adjustments around this observed IAT value and the observed craning ignition timing. It is completely possible that the stock computer is not pulling enough timing during this hot start to get a very smooth and quick start given the increased throttle volume.
Make very small timing adjustments first then adjust fuel if needed.
WORD OF Warning.
Adjusting timing during starting is very dangerous and must be done with caution and patients..
Other then a knock/ping or pre detonation event, starting a motor is one of the hardest conditions a motor will see.
Remember that the moss blower outlet manifold did have a port on it that on the Miata was running directly to the bypass valve. This was necessary on the Miata to solve there idle droop issues they have with the A2A/ larger throttle volume. You may need to put that port back on the manifold if you experience idle droop once you go to an A2A.
Let me know how the A2A setup goes. If there is not a lot of pressure loss and good consistent heat rejection I a may also elect to change my system over. I all about making a system more passive due to less failure modes.
On getting rid of the hot start issue.
It’s a lot easier to explain this over the phone then in words on the forum but I will give it a try.
Camuman is spot on with adjusting the starting/cranking ignition timing when hi IATs are being see during a hot start.
However the ULT was never intended to have the ability to adjust hot cranking timing being that it is a piggeyback; however that does not mean we can’t get it to perform that function just need to be careful.
Here is what I am thinking
The ULT does have Intake temperature based ignition timing and fuel compensation option/maps.
“Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
After a long drive and the motor has had time to heat soak
Hook up the lap top to the ULT and start recording real time the data logs
Turn the key to the run/on position (without starting) for approx 2 mins to ensure that the O2 sensor is warmed up properly before starting the car. ( we want to measure A/F during cranking and the first initial seconds after starting; IATs and hot Ignition timing the stock computer is putting out.
During this time when the O2 Sensor is being heated up before starting look at your real time data logs and note the IATs.
Turn key off for 2 seconds then turn back ( to ensure fuel rail is at full pressure) on click connect real time ( data log should still be recording) verify and then start the car hopefully replicating the issue during hot start so data logs can be reordered.
Take the car out for a drive while still recording your data logs.
After the drive save the data log file and allow the motor to heat soak again
On this startup do not do the 2 min O2 warm up; record a new data log.
The reason we want to get a second set of data logs during cranking is to ensure the that 2 min O2 warm up warm up on the first log did not adversely affect the IATs.
Remember that the A2W IC pump was running during that warm up so the IAT during cranking may have been skewed due to colder water in the IC barrel.
Now that we have a good set of IAT data during start up and during normal driving
We need to verify that the IATs experienced during hot start up are not seen at any other time.
The hope is the hot start IATs will be higher than you would ever experience during normal running conditions.
If not then any adjustment we make for hot start will also be applied at any other time that specific IAT is seen.
Now this may not be a problem as it may also fix the heat bog some owners get when starting from a stop ( be it FI or NA) but the adjustments we are going to make may or may make that condition better and possible even worse.
We are intending to only adjust cranking values that are relatively constant inside the stock ecu for given starting conditions however the condition of heat bog start are dynamic as the stock ecu is in closed loop during that time; and the adjustments made in the ULT will be applied globally any time a specific IAT is seen.
Activate the Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
And set your temp scale appropriately for the IATs experienced during hot start.
NOTE TEMP in the Greddy must be set to C for A/F feedback to work
So say you are seeing 194F ( 90C)
You would set your Temp scale to be
0,5,10,15,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,84,85,90,95,110
I am only going to focus on the area in bold as this is the assumed critical area based on a theoretical 90C IAT during hot start
Note how the temp under 90C goes 85 then 84.
The Greddy ULT interpolates between values so if there need to be a hard cut off having two values close together will accomplish this e.g. 85/84.
Then you can make ign/fule adjustments around this observed IAT value and the observed craning ignition timing. It is completely possible that the stock computer is not pulling enough timing during this hot start to get a very smooth and quick start given the increased throttle volume.
Make very small timing adjustments first then adjust fuel if needed.
WORD OF Warning.
Adjusting timing during starting is very dangerous and must be done with caution and patients..
Other then a knock/ping or pre detonation event, starting a motor is one of the hardest conditions a motor will see.
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Registered User
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,449
Likes: 1
From: IE
Originally Posted by MugenRioS2k,Jul 9 2010, 07:32 AM
On the relocation of the vacuum line going to the bypass valve move the vacuum line from where it is on the Big TB pre blower to a source on the OEM intake manifold or a port on the blower outlet manifold.
Remember that the moss blower outlet manifold did have a port on it that on the Miata was running directly to the bypass valve. This was necessary on the Miata to solve there idle droop issues they have with the A2A/ larger throttle volume. You may need to put that port back on the manifold if you experience idle droop once you go to an A2A.
Let me know how the A2A setup goes. If there is not a lot of pressure loss and good consistent heat rejection I a may also elect to change my system over. I all about making a system more passive due to less failure modes.
On getting rid of the hot start issue.
It’s a lot easier to explain this over the phone then in words on the forum but I will give it a try.
Camuman is spot on with adjusting the starting/cranking ignition timing when hi IATs are being see during a hot start.
However the ULT was never intended to have the ability to adjust hot cranking timing being that it is a piggeyback; however that does not mean we can’t get it to perform that function just need to be careful.
Here is what I am thinking
The ULT does have Intake temperature based ignition timing and fuel compensation option/maps.
“Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
After a long drive and the motor has had time to heat soak
Hook up the lap top to the ULT and start recording real time the data logs
Turn the key to the run/on position (without starting) for approx 2 mins to ensure that the O2 sensor is warmed up properly before starting the car. ( we want to measure A/F during cranking and the first initial seconds after starting; IATs and hot Ignition timing the stock computer is putting out.
During this time when the O2 Sensor is being heated up before starting look at your real time data logs and note the IATs.
Turn key off for 2 seconds then turn back ( to ensure fuel rail is at full pressure) on click connect real time ( data log should still be recording) verify and then start the car hopefully replicating the issue during hot start so data logs can be reordered.
Take the car out for a drive while still recording your data logs.
After the drive save the data log file and allow the motor to heat soak again
On this startup do not do the 2 min O2 warm up; record a new data log.
The reason we want to get a second set of data logs during cranking is to ensure the that 2 min O2 warm up warm up on the first log did not adversely affect the IATs.
Remember that the A2W IC pump was running during that warm up so the IAT during cranking may have been skewed due to colder water in the IC barrel.
Now that we have a good set of IAT data during start up and during normal driving
We need to verify that the IATs experienced during hot start up are not seen at any other time.
The hope is the hot start IATs will be higher than you would ever experience during normal running conditions.
If not then any adjustment we make for hot start will also be applied at any other time that specific IAT is seen.
Now this may not be a problem as it may also fix the heat bog some owners get when starting from a stop ( be it FI or NA) but the adjustments we are going to make may or may make that condition better and possible even worse.
We are intending to only adjust cranking values that are relatively constant inside the stock ecu for given starting conditions however the condition of heat bog start are dynamic as the stock ecu is in closed loop during that time; and the adjustments made in the ULT will be applied globally any time a specific IAT is seen.
Activate the Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
And set your temp scale appropriately for the IATs experienced during hot start.
NOTE TEMP in the Greddy must be set to C for A/F feedback to work
So say you are seeing 194F ( 90C)
You would set your Temp scale to be
0,5,10,15,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,84,85,90,95,110
I am only going to focus on the area in bold as this is the assumed critical area based on a theoretical 90C IAT during hot start
Note how the temp under 90C goes 85 then 84.
The Greddy ULT interpolates between values so if there need to be a hard cut off having two values close together will accomplish this e.g. 85/84.
Then you can make ign/fule adjustments around this observed IAT value and the observed craning ignition timing. It is completely possible that the stock computer is not pulling enough timing during this hot start to get a very smooth and quick start given the increased throttle volume.
Make very small timing adjustments first then adjust fuel if needed.
WORD OF Warning.
Adjusting timing during starting is very dangerous and must be done with caution and patients..
Other then a knock/ping or pre detonation event, starting a motor is one of the hardest conditions a motor will see.
Remember that the moss blower outlet manifold did have a port on it that on the Miata was running directly to the bypass valve. This was necessary on the Miata to solve there idle droop issues they have with the A2A/ larger throttle volume. You may need to put that port back on the manifold if you experience idle droop once you go to an A2A.
Let me know how the A2A setup goes. If there is not a lot of pressure loss and good consistent heat rejection I a may also elect to change my system over. I all about making a system more passive due to less failure modes.
On getting rid of the hot start issue.
It’s a lot easier to explain this over the phone then in words on the forum but I will give it a try.
Camuman is spot on with adjusting the starting/cranking ignition timing when hi IATs are being see during a hot start.
However the ULT was never intended to have the ability to adjust hot cranking timing being that it is a piggeyback; however that does not mean we can’t get it to perform that function just need to be careful.
Here is what I am thinking
The ULT does have Intake temperature based ignition timing and fuel compensation option/maps.
“Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
After a long drive and the motor has had time to heat soak
Hook up the lap top to the ULT and start recording real time the data logs
Turn the key to the run/on position (without starting) for approx 2 mins to ensure that the O2 sensor is warmed up properly before starting the car. ( we want to measure A/F during cranking and the first initial seconds after starting; IATs and hot Ignition timing the stock computer is putting out.
During this time when the O2 Sensor is being heated up before starting look at your real time data logs and note the IATs.
Turn key off for 2 seconds then turn back ( to ensure fuel rail is at full pressure) on click connect real time ( data log should still be recording) verify and then start the car hopefully replicating the issue during hot start so data logs can be reordered.
Take the car out for a drive while still recording your data logs.
After the drive save the data log file and allow the motor to heat soak again
On this startup do not do the 2 min O2 warm up; record a new data log.
The reason we want to get a second set of data logs during cranking is to ensure the that 2 min O2 warm up warm up on the first log did not adversely affect the IATs.
Remember that the A2W IC pump was running during that warm up so the IAT during cranking may have been skewed due to colder water in the IC barrel.
Now that we have a good set of IAT data during start up and during normal driving
We need to verify that the IATs experienced during hot start up are not seen at any other time.
The hope is the hot start IATs will be higher than you would ever experience during normal running conditions.
If not then any adjustment we make for hot start will also be applied at any other time that specific IAT is seen.
Now this may not be a problem as it may also fix the heat bog some owners get when starting from a stop ( be it FI or NA) but the adjustments we are going to make may or may make that condition better and possible even worse.
We are intending to only adjust cranking values that are relatively constant inside the stock ecu for given starting conditions however the condition of heat bog start are dynamic as the stock ecu is in closed loop during that time; and the adjustments made in the ULT will be applied globally any time a specific IAT is seen.
Activate the Intake Temp IGN Adj.Map and Intake Temp Adj I/J Map”
And set your temp scale appropriately for the IATs experienced during hot start.
NOTE TEMP in the Greddy must be set to C for A/F feedback to work
So say you are seeing 194F ( 90C)
You would set your Temp scale to be
0,5,10,15,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,84,85,90,95,110
I am only going to focus on the area in bold as this is the assumed critical area based on a theoretical 90C IAT during hot start
Note how the temp under 90C goes 85 then 84.
The Greddy ULT interpolates between values so if there need to be a hard cut off having two values close together will accomplish this e.g. 85/84.
Then you can make ign/fule adjustments around this observed IAT value and the observed craning ignition timing. It is completely possible that the stock computer is not pulling enough timing during this hot start to get a very smooth and quick start given the increased throttle volume.
Make very small timing adjustments first then adjust fuel if needed.
WORD OF Warning.
Adjusting timing during starting is very dangerous and must be done with caution and patients..
Other then a knock/ping or pre detonation event, starting a motor is one of the hardest conditions a motor will see.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Work , School , Home
Thanks... I am having the exact same issues with my kit. It doesnt die anymore after adjusting the throttle cable.. but it falls close to 600-700 rpm and shakes like it want to die.. I will try the above solution
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,949
Likes: 473
From: MAHT-O-MEDI
Fixed my problem the easy way. I was running an 02 ecu on my MY01 car. I swapped the original ecu back in and the hot start issue is gone. I guess the 01 that I had just deals with it better????? It has been 93 degrees and 90 percent humidity just about every day for the last couple weeks and when I heatsoak the car now it will stumble a tiny bit on startup but never dies. I can even put the top down when idling without have to rev it.
I guess that was cheating for finding a fix for it but hey, whatever works.
I guess that was cheating for finding a fix for it but hey, whatever works.